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  1. Posts
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    Because then it would be an official statement, and he could be nailed at it
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  2. Posts
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlevel View Post
    If Unity CEO is aware of these posts, I'm wondering why he don't post nothing here and solve all the questions of this thread.

    This could be done in less than 5 minutes.
    I agree with you
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  3. Posts
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    I asked David Helgason what he thinks about a public web site with Unity bugs and known issues.
    He replayed "It's a good idea, though so far we've decided it was too much effort compared to actually fixing the bugs, but it might happen at some point."
    So i think that we can do it by ourself.
    What do you think?
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewLife View Post
    I asked David Helgason what he thinks about a public web site with Unity bugs and known issues.
    He replayed "It's a good idea, though so far we've decided it was too much effort compared to actually fixing the bugs, but it might happen at some point."
    So i think that we can do it by ourself.
    What do you think?
    In my opinion, I don't think we have to do their job for free and lose more time.

    Anyway, I'm tired of lack of support from Unity, after all these months nothing has changed, so I'm switching my project to UDK engine, which is more mature and take their job seriously.

    Bye Unity.


  5. Posts
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    "It's a good idea, though so far we've decided it was too much effort compared to actually fixing the bugs, but it might happen at some point."
    A shame that he hasn`t understood yet that this would be the more time saving solution for everybody. No more sorting of thousands bugreport submissions for the same bug. Plus it would bring more satisfied users. In the end it`s Unity`s decision. All we can do is ask for it.

    So i think that we can do it by ourself.
    What do you think?
    This will not work. You can`t know what bugs gets worked at, and what bugs are already fixed. Because it is not directly connected to Unity and its devs.

    Pressure is the only language businessmen really understands. To do their job for them is no pressure but a relief, which makes the need for a change even smaller. What could help is to stop posting bugs by the bugtracking system. And post every bug report directly here in this forum. In best case one bug gets reported by thousands of people at once, flooding the forum. But this will not happen neither i fear.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Helgason View Post
    we've decided it was too much effort compared to actually fixing the bugs
    That would be fine if they were actually fixing the bugs at a satisfactory rate.

    (Edit: figured I should clarify a bit). I don't mean that I think the UT engineers are just lazily sitting around doing nothing - I know that's not true. But at the end of the day UT have a limited number of people; they are never going to fix all the bugs and they have to prioritize. If they fix a bug that's affecting 70% of people, then great, but it doesn't help me if I'm in the 30% who have different problems. So by "actually fixing the bugs" I really mean my bugs (or your bugs, or his bugs, etc).
    Last edited by Superpig; 05-06-2012 at 03:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiles View Post
    You can`t know what bugs gets worked at, and what bugs are already fixed. Because it is not directly connected to Unity and its devs.
    Not true: we are told which bugs have been fixed in the release notes for a new version. And really, until that new version comes out, what difference does it make which bugs are being worked on inside Unity?

    What could help is to stop posting bugs by the bugtracking system. And post every bug report directly here in this forum. In best case one bug gets reported by thousands of people at once, flooding the forum. But this will not happen neither i fear.
    I think this would be a very bad idea. It'd kill the usefulness of the forum for everybody else, and it would only make it harder for Unity to actually fix the bugs.


  8. Posts
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    Sure, that`s what a boycott is made for. To produce a bit trouble and to give a bit of a decision help

    On the other hand, what about a bugsection at the forum where users can talk about bugs and workarounds? I`ve seen this concept at other software before. And there it worked good. That would be some kind of a public bug tracker, without really being a public bug tracker. And would definitely make less work. And would make a few users more happy. A win win situation. At the moment such threads about Unity bugs sinks in the masses of other posts. And gets as fast forgotten as they got written.

    Not true: we are told which bugs have been fixed in the release notes for a new version. And really, until that new version comes out, what difference does it make which bugs are being worked on inside Unity?
    But the list would never be the one from the Unity devs. They surely get a ton of reports about bugs that we will never see and never hear from. Unity devs would ignore this external hobby list because it differs anyways. Means the only useful part of such an external bugtracker would be to blow off a bit steam. And it`s too much work for just that.

    By the way, who would maintain such a bugtracker? Who will spend all his time for free to go through thousands of reports per day? Who pays the server bills? Unity has the resources anyways, they already deal with the stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiles View Post
    Hm, cannot fully agree here. The "serious", means professional developers are the ones where time is money. And that`s the ones who will rarely submit bug reports. Because time is money. And creating a proper bug report and uploading it costs time.

    On the positive side, my last bug submissions all gots answered and told to be fixed in the next release. So there has something changed. Fingers crossed that it lasts. And i would really wish to have a faster release cycle to get the bugfixes then.
    The problem with public bugtrackers is the attached scenes. Not everyone makes new testcases for the bugs they report and sometimes just post the project they are working for. That being available for view for everyone is obviously a problem.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Superpig View Post
    That would be fine if they were actually fixing the bugs at a satisfactory rate.

    (Edit: figured I should clarify a bit). I don't mean that I think the UT engineers are just lazily sitting around doing nothing - I know that's not true. But at the end of the day UT have a limited number of people; they are never going to fix all the bugs and they have to prioritize. If they fix a bug that's affecting 70% of people, then great, but it doesn't help me if I'm in the 30% who have different problems. So by "actually fixing the bugs" I really mean my bugs (or your bugs, or his bugs, etc).
    Repeat after me, "all software have bugs". Some have really severe ones, others less so. Really severe ones are those that flat out stop you from being able to do what you want. For example consistent and frequent crashes. Unity doesn't really have those. Right now Unity's bugs are sort of "things are not optimized enough" and not the "I absolutely cannot use this" kind.

    I'm not saying I don't want bugs fixed. I do. I want all the bugs in the bugtracker to be fixed yesterday. I'm just trying to put some perspective here.

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    Marking bugs/bug attachments as private is not difficult to implement, if the bug tracker's any good.

    Quote Originally Posted by AcidArrow View Post
    Really severe ones are those that flat out stop you from being able to do what you want. For example consistent and frequent crashes. Unity doesn't really have those. Right now Unity's bugs are sort of "things are not optimized enough" and not the "I absolutely cannot use this" kind.
    You can't back any of that up, because there's no public bug tracker. You literally have no way of knowing how many people have hit showstopper bugs - not least because the only reasonable response to such a bug is to find a way around it or to change scope such that you're not blocked by it. We're not seeing a crowd of people sitting around waiting for the bugs to be fixed because when you're trying to ship a game you don't sit around waiting. You change what you're trying to do, or you switch engine. People definitely do both of those things sometimes.

    Maybe in your experience, you've not run into anything big. Good for you. But as you say, all software has bugs, and the same logic that leads to that conclusion also leads to the conclusion that you can't tell what the severity of those bugs are. (I, for one, do get frequent crashes - though granted they're usually out-of-memory conditions, which a public bug DB wouldn't help much with).


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    Superpig got a strong point here, imo.


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    Quote Originally Posted by NewLife View Post
    I asked David Helgason what he thinks about a public web site with Unity bugs and known issues.
    He replayed "It's a good idea, though so far we've decided it was too much effort compared to actually fixing the bugs, but it might happen at some point."
    So i think that we can do it by ourself.
    What do you think?
    Just to put into perspective a possible reason he says it will take too long;

    (taken from a little gem of a blog post: http://blogs.unity3d.com/2011/10/21/...unity-does-it/)

    We looked at a few different code review systems, and eventually settled on Kiln from Fog Creek Software. Many people already know that we have used FogBugz as our issue tracking system for a while now. While FogBugz has some room for improvement (specifically, it doesn’t work very well as a public-facing bug tracker), it has done a pretty good job of serving our needs, and we have a really large amount of data in the system.
    Which essentially means they have to change their bug-tracking system and link it with their VCS + all the compatibility issues. The fact is, we don't exactly know what Unity is thinking.

    I think we just have to get their attention on the fact that if they don't make the bug-tracker at least partially public, on the long run they will get more and more frustrated customers. Fact is, Unity is still aimed at amateur / indie customers who don't pay for "enhanced" support. Their main value of democratization isn't reflected in the way they handle bugs and thus will have a lot more issues with customers than, for say, UDK.


  14. Posts
    17
    Quote Originally Posted by AcidArrow View Post
    Repeat after me, "all software have bugs". Some have really severe ones, others less so. Really severe ones are those that flat out stop you from being able to do what you want. For example consistent and frequent crashes. Unity doesn't really have those. Right now Unity's bugs are sort of "things are not optimized enough" and not the "I absolutely cannot use this" kind.

    I'm not saying I don't want bugs fixed. I do. I want all the bugs in the bugtracker to be fixed yesterday. I'm just trying to put some perspective here.
    You are right, the bugs are not 100% consistent, and that's a pity, but as soon as you have big scenes that uses more than 3Gb of ram, then the crashes are becoming really frequent.
    When the only information in the unity log is 'Crash !!!' it is quite frustrating (and quite embarrasing when you are in front of your graphic designers ^^).

    The lack of clear log error messages and the inability of using Unity dll's inside unit tests make the developement process really slow and too unpredictable for a professional use.

    We are investigating to integrate Unity in a continuous intergration process considering some unsupported free tools like SharpUnit, but we are certainly investigating to switch to some other 3D engine.

    We would be really glad to pay the professsional lisense a lot more in order to get a stable product.
    And finally, we don't have the time to maintain a public bug tracker, especially if it's not an open source project.

    Regards


  15. Posts
    541
    I think that the best thing Unity can do in order to improve this situation, even more than creating a public bug tracker, is to schedule a release EVERY MONTH, not every year, like UDK and Crytec are doing since years.
    Last edited by NewLife; 05-08-2012 at 07:48 AM.
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  16. Posts
    620
    Quote Originally Posted by NewLife View Post
    I think that the beat thing Unity can do in order to improve this situation, even more than creating a public bug tracker, is to schedule a release EVERY MONTH, not every year, like UDK and Crytec are doing since years.
    Second this... The issues I discussed with Unity are (citation) "[...] fixed, but we don't know yet when it will be released [...]" (or if it will make into the next release). I'm currently investigating how my game would perform by changing the game style entirely (from 2.5D platformer to 3D 3rd person)... but if this fails I'm surely switching engine...


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    Unity seems to have heard you:

    http://blogs.unity3d.com/2012/05/08/testing-unity/

    Interesting section about Tools & Community:

    Use the community
    We have you guys. You’re a great help as it is, but we can do a whole lot more. We can help you with tools which will help you test your own games. Let’s face it; while we believe we’re doing a heroic effort to cover everything, it is practically impossible.

    Tools might include better overviews of bug reports, automated duplicate finders when you submit bugs, integration to answers. Even something like publishing testing suites for you to run on your own games could be an option. Helping you will go a long way in helping us, if we do it in a way where results can be piped back to us in a way so we can take action on it.


  18. Posts
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    Well... let's see... I start to believe when I start to see...


  19. Location
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    That's very good news, and thanks to Unity to have reacted so fast (as the general bugtracker complaint only appeared recently).
    I salute the initiative. Although, as Metron, I won't judge until the thing is real.


  20. Posts
    177
    Quote Originally Posted by AcidArrow View Post
    Really severe ones are those that flat out stop you from being able to do what you want. For example consistent and frequent crashes. Unity doesn't really have those.
    Not true. Once you have bigger project, crashes are very frequent (out of memory), especially actions which "browse" through project. Importing assets, turning support of meta files on, switching between bigger scenes after play, various asset server crashes, etc...

    I am not mentioning performance problems in 3.5+, Umbra still not working properly - after two years. I really dont understand what is going on there, implementing Umbra in any existing engine is matter of cca 2 days (download trial SDK and try yourself). Btw, why Unity offers very crippled version of Umbra? Full umbra is 10x more powerfull (dynamic oclussion, incremental rebaking...).

    From the unity blog:

    ...We have the testable product, we have the infrastructure and we have the need. Were we to make a single cycle product, and then move on to the next, we would not be taking such a bet on automation, but features in Unity live for years and repeated manual testing on such a product simply doesn’t make sense.

    Use the community

    We have you guys.


    So message is IMHO clear. We will not try to do any serious testing, we are testing on you guys. Why to bother to do for example automatic tests (hard work), if we have you? Well, you paid for licence and you expect working product? Who cares....

    Personally I have nothing against testing on community, but this is totally wrong approach. In such case each beta must be public, there must be working bug tracking system, bugs must be solved, not ignored. Whole "send us your project or ignored" attitude is shame. You dont want to employ testers and develop automated tests? OK, but then hire far more people for bug fixing and use community well. You can do it one way, or other, but nothing in between.
    Last edited by l0cke; 05-08-2012 at 05:43 PM.

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