Unity Community


Page 1 of 10 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 185

  1. Posts
    1,370

    My appeal to reconsider copyright

    Wow, it's been a long time since i've posted here, and obviously a lot has changed. I know y'all are a tough crowd when it comes to anti-copyright, being primarily business people and all, but I thought I'd post this as I'm curious what the consensus (or argument) on the issue is.

    This was designed with a wider audience in mind, so some of it will be redundant and boring, just giving fair warning.



    edit: aww the smileys are different now! I miss this:
    Last edited by forestjohnson; 03-12-2012 at 07:35 PM.


  2. Location
    Athens, Greece
    Posts
    1,060
    Hi Forest,

    Some people find great pleasure in having much more than average. To achieve this, other people end up having very few or nothing. It happens since the beginning of the known history. "Morality", "laws" of "gods" and humans, are perpetually used tools in this direction - ensuring that some people will have more than the others and most people will have very few or nothing.

    When something new occurs, something that threatens to disturb this situation, it is gradually absorbed and transformed into a gear of this meat - chopping machine. Take Jesus for example. His "Love One Another" message got transformed in a cross on crusader's swords that slayed people across East.

    Greed is the base of the problem. The only reason greed is considered "bad" from a moral POV is to lower the competition. The same play is played over time with different actors ( kings, priests, politicians and lately bankers and stock investors ) and most people do not realize that they are supporting actors in their life's movie.

    Those who could change the situation are easily sedated with fair doses of material happiness - having the great pleasure of going home in an expensive car with homeless people at the corner of the street. How can a person find hapiness when people around starve ? Easily, by characterizing them as useless and by thanking his god-abilities-luck-name yours for being better than them.

    Beautiful modern times - more than 5000 years old.

    Internet becomes another gear of this system - SOPA is just one of the many faces of this "integration". It becomes part of the human - chopping machine. Raising people's awareness is a hard thing to do.
    Nice try btw.
    -Ippokratis
    Colored Shadows
    Batching Tools
    : Batch draw calls easily.
    Toon Shader Mobile: Good for mobile, fast and beautiful.
    Toon Shader Desktop: Good for desktops, more advanced.
    Thyella : A small game prototype on Kongregate


  3. Location
    Hampshire, UK
    Posts
    944
    It makes me sad that all young people can find to rail against these days is not getting enough free stuff. In the past, people protested for peace, tried to stop nuclear proliferation, campaigned for equal treatment for women, people of other races and people of other sexualities. These days, the best they can come up with is "I can't create anything of value, so why should people who can be allowed to benefit from it?" Sure, they dress it up and make it sound political, but the message is still the message no matter how you paint it.

    Greed is the base of the problem.
    Equally, jealousy is the root of the other side of the problem.
    Experienced Game Developer Available for Freelance/Contract Work - My Portfolio


  4. Posts
    1,137
    Quote Originally Posted by sybixsus2 View Post
    In the past, people protested for peace, tried to stop nuclear proliferation, campaigned for equal treatment for women, people of other races and people of other sexualities.
    By "in the past" you mean today right? Because that is happening just like it did in the past if not more.
    Please use [code][/code] tags when posting code. Otherwise rapid eye bleeding can occur.


  5. Location
    Athens, Greece
    Posts
    1,060
    Hi,

    subisxsus2: Thanks for sharing your point of view.
    It makes me sad that all young people can find to rail against these days is not getting enough free stuff.
    Cheer up, people still do rail instead of staying apathetic.

    Sure, they dress it up and make it sound political, but the message is still the message no matter how you paint it.
    Messages are like seeds - they need soil. They can be interpreted in various ways - each one deserves to be respected.

    Equally, jealousy is the root of the other side of the problem.
    Too many problems with too many sides - solutions need actions.

    Kind regards,
    -Ippokratis
    Last edited by Ippokratis; 04-21-2012 at 03:09 PM.
    Colored Shadows
    Batching Tools
    : Batch draw calls easily.
    Toon Shader Mobile: Good for mobile, fast and beautiful.
    Toon Shader Desktop: Good for desktops, more advanced.
    Thyella : A small game prototype on Kongregate

  6. Super Moderator
    Location
    Great Britain
    Posts
    9,660
    I would rather live in exciting times than apathetic times. But I do think that a lot of people are lazy as (djoy SHL 1) these days. I'm happy to be greedy if I worked for it.

    I don't consider copyright a problem, but I do consider patents a huge problem. It's lame to have your work copied and passed off. It would be freaking bedlam if it were allowed. Patents are evil though, since they represent and idea you can't use, instead of work you can't copy.
    Last edited by hippocoder; 04-21-2012 at 04:32 PM.
    Currently working with Sony on our new
    PS4 and Vita game in Unity!

    This post is not representative of Simian Squared Ltd


  7. Location
    Gold Coast, Australia
    Posts
    3,593
    Absolutely Brilliant Argument!

    There's an absolute ton of great stuff out there that is free!

    Therefor it's a completely rational and sane argument force everything to be free.

    /FAIL


  8. Posts
    2,377
    Quote Originally Posted by Ippokratis View Post
    Hi,

    subisxsus2: Thanks for sharing your point of view.
    Cheer up, people still do rail instead of staying apathetic.

    Messages are like seeds - they need soil. They can be interpreted in various ways - each one deserves to be respected.

    Too many problems with too many sides - solutions need actions.

    Kind regards,
    -Ippokratis
    You typed so much and said so little. =/ First class Internet style.
    My personal game projects -
    Dimension Q Site
    Facebook Page
    Twitter

    Nobody likes rambling gibberish.
    http://whatever.scalzi.com/2006/02/1...rk-at-writing/

  9. Super Moderator
    Location
    Great Britain
    Posts
    9,660
    Almost a haiku from ippo there isn't it?
    Currently working with Sony on our new
    PS4 and Vita game in Unity!

    This post is not representative of Simian Squared Ltd


  10. Posts
    2,144
    To everyone here against copyright, it helps to understand what it's doing.

    Copyright protects you, as a creator.

    Copyright has nothing to do with the price of a product. In fact, it's nearly impossible for a company to file a successful lawsuit against you for pirating a copy of anything for your own use.

    What is a [successfully prosecuted] crime is redistribution. If there was no copyright, sony can just walk by, grab a copy of Mario 64, Minecraft and hey, why not, my own Misu Misu Kaboom/Bomber Cat game and re-sell it on the App Store, Steam, and many other places without giving me a penny.

    They can just grab my game and place it in a heavily promoted website (that looks less likely to host viruses than my own thanks to well paid web designers) and sell adds to give my own game for free and make money.

    They can put my game for free in the App Store for free and stamp in app purchases so the money people pay for skins and costumes go to their pockets, not mine.

    And if it's legal THEY WILL DO IT because corporations don't care about playing nice, they just want to make money in any legal way possible.

    Copyright law exists precisely to prevent any corporation from redistributing your creations and cut you out of any form of revenue you decided to pursue (advertisements, subscriptions, etc etc.)

    Many are angry at copyrights but it's obvious they have no clue WHY they are angry at them. The real problem is a small one: punitive damages. These where established over a century ago, if I'm not wrong. What are they? They basically say "for ever product you make available that breaks copyright, you have to pay between $38,000 and $50,000."

    What does that mean? It means, if I seed torrents for 5 movies, I can be sued and, should I lose, I may have to pay between $190,000 and $250,000. Why those huge numbers? Because the goal of these punitive damages was precisely to prevent large companies from thinking they would just violate copyrights and pay small compensation to the owners if caught.

    This was never intended to be used against a small individual at home, simply because when they were introduced it was literally impossible for such an individual to create the level of distribution needed to be target of a lawsuit. This law MUST be rewritten so that independent/non commercial entities (individuals) that don't profit from their piracy are punished (they should) but not this harshly. The penalty should be more inline with driving violations and required to go via small claims courts (unless the individual was doing the piracy for profit.)

    There is another issue that spawns from the punitive damage deal and it's not too different from patent trolls: since going to court is so expensive, some sleazy lawyers will just go which hunting, threatening people left and right, and offering expensive settlements that are better than going to court and paying a lawyer to defend yourself. This is another reason why there should be laws to prevent abuse of the law and force such claims to go to small claims courts.

    But again: remove copyrights and you may as well forget about ever becoming an indie anything, because anything you do will just be automatically and legally stolen and sold by large companies, cutting you out of the action completely.
    Starsman Games
    Follow Starsman Games on Twitter, Facebook or Google+


  11. Location
    www.eboncourt.com San Diego
    Posts
    199
    I work, I create, I deserve to benefit from my labors. Others who had no part in the process do not.

    Nothing in life is free. Nothing. If it is a product, someone worked to produce it. Unless the lazy and socialist in the world advocate turning others into slaves to produce things for them for "free," the argument against greed is silly.

    As Gecko said, greed is good. But, as someone else also said, too much of a good thing is bad.

    Whatever the heck that all means...


  12. Location
    Gold Coast, Australia
    Posts
    3,593
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharsman View Post
    This law MUST be rewritten so that independent/non commercial entities (individuals) that don't profit from their piracy are punished (they should) but not this harshly.
    +1

    They key though is they actually be punished - right now piracy is so easy as to be common and even expected. The long term repercussions of such ethical and moral codes is something I don't want to think about.

    And many have to remember that we here, as smaller game companies, are suffering because of these issues. We not only have to compete with entertainment that costs up to HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars... but at a price point of $ZERO thanks to piracy.


  13. Location
    PA, USA
    Posts
    1,088
    Quote Originally Posted by JRavey View Post
    You typed so much and said so little. =/ First class Internet style.
    To me, this short reply from Ippokratis seemed to be more thought provoking than lacking substance. It made me ponder more about his previous posts and the others before his latest here.

    Interesting views in the video. From what I can see, it looks as if copyright abuse and business models are the real topic here, not copyright itself. Copyright helps all your favorite freebies from being cut off at the knees when they are young. It prevents duplicates and clones from popping up that could overshadow the idea of the original creator. It seems that the real problem is the business and marketing tactics here.

    People can get things for free and are not afraid to do so online. This is a segment of the market businesses need to look at seriously. Many of them do not and feel that their business as usual is good enough. That is suicide though. I've read countless articles on piracy and intellectual property theft that occurs on the internet. It seems that people are willing to pay for what they want its just that many times they don't want a to do extra work for it. I always refer to this image when copyright is brought up: (taken from http://boingboing.net/2010/02/18/inf...-buying-d.html)

    So really, which item is less hassle for the customer? As a content creator and provider we must consider this kind of mentality now that the internet is here. Its a stance that Valve holds, piracy isn't a problem, they are just undeserved customers. This article explains Valve's view of pirates: http://www.techdirt.com/articles/200...24433835.shtml

    Another problem that music and movie industries complain about is user uploaded copyrighted content that they have refused to make available. I am referring to old TV shows and region locked music albums that people pirate. Sure it is copyright infringement, but if someone wants it and enjoys it that much to search for it, isn't there some of them that would pay for it? Or even watch a few ads to view them online? This I feel is copyright abuse, when a company seeks damages due to copyright infringement on a product that they never released in to a specific market. Companies need to realize these markets when they arise and address them. Oh there is a cult of people downloading our TV show from the 80s? Well make a DVD box set or allow people to purchase and download the item from your store with some exclusive content and you instantly make it worth it for the fans to purchase what they wanted. Some music publishers only publish CD's in certain regions. We are a global economy now, other areas may want that CD. Which is easier to obtain, pay $40 for a CD with $20 international shipping from some offshore online shop that specializes in importing music or to find it on a torrent site for download? (from what I have seen, certain record labels only want to serve certain customers in certain ways and there are cd's out there that can only be purchased in CD form by importing it at 5 times the regular cost.)

    So I don't think copyright is the issue at all. I feel this is more or less business models and tactics that are the real problem causing the "problems of piracy and content theft". Copyright protects content creators from other content "creators" who prey on start ups and those who want to make a quick buck off someone else's work. I know I don't want just anyone being able to use my artwork for their business. Do away with copyright and Disney characters would be advertising everything. You wouldn't be able to go anywhere without seeing someones popular image trying to represent a brand. That would be a state where you would not easily benefit form being a content creator, which I am sure most people would not want to be in.

    The problem that needs to be addressed is how the individuals and businesses handle the market. That determines their profits and customer base. Copyright has nothing to do with that other than ensure they themselves can bring their content to the market instead of the guy next door who copied all of the new content made.
    Last edited by MakerOfGames; 04-21-2012 at 09:48 PM.
    "To go on an adventure, one must discard the comforts and safety of the known and trusted." - Vert


  14. Posts
    2,144
    @MakerOfGames

    There are two issues at play here.

    Issue one: BlueRay is garbage. You can get legal movie downloads digitally from iTunes and other sources without that much struggle.

    Issue two: That image is a big lie :P The pirate route usually involves visiting some website with a lot of potential malware infested ads, hunt down the true torrent, wait an hour or two, maybe more if the seeding is bad, and hope you picked the right torrent and not just a virus. Once you get the file now you better hope it's a format you can play or that you are geeky enough to have VLC installed. If you are geeky enough you may now start the burning process so you can watch on the TV.
    Starsman Games
    Follow Starsman Games on Twitter, Facebook or Google+


  15. Posts
    1,969
    Its at the point one might just have to go to the library and read a book , or download a classic public domain book for FREE
    http://beatquestgame.com

    Everyone makes a classic platformer , here's mine

    https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...QnJvc0xpdGUiXQ..


  16. Location
    Victoria Australia
    Posts
    4,770
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharsman View Post
    @MakerOfGames

    There are two issues at play here.

    Issue one: BlueRay is garbage. You can get legal movie downloads digitally from iTunes and other sources without that much struggle.

    Issue two: That image is a big lie :P The pirate route usually involves visiting some website with a lot of potential malware infested ads, hunt down the true torrent, wait an hour or two, maybe more if the seeding is bad, and hope you picked the right torrent and not just a virus. Once you get the file now you better hope it's a format you can play or that you are geeky enough to have VLC installed. If you are geeky enough you may now start the burning process so you can watch on the TV.
    Then you get to start watching the bury, shaky mess with someones head in front of the camera
    Maybe you can help me work out how to smooth my planetary gravity!


    Quote Originally Posted by hippocoder View Post
    Calm down, you're posting all kinds of nonsense that makes no sense. I suggest you post less, and follow http://unity3d.com/learn tutorials.


  17. Location
    uk
    Posts
    1,158
    Quote Originally Posted by NPSF3000 View Post
    +1

    They key though is they actually be punished - right now piracy is so easy as to be common and even expected. The long term repercussions of such ethical and moral codes is something I don't want to think about.

    Sorry but i'm going to have to disagree with this, not on principle (moral/ethic codes are very important and punishment has its place in society), but on practicality and that I believe it will still fail to make any changes.

    I think the problem here is that content creators view every pirated copy as a lost sale and that this has gotten worse with the rise of digital content.

    Taking the second point first, piracy ( not stealing, which deprives the seller of a physical product) is nothing new, you've always been able to copy and every few decades it got easier due to the distribution and creation of the copies getting easier. E.g. Tape decks for copying records. In addition you've always been able to sell, lend, share content in the past and no-one has was ever bothered by it.

    Indeed in some markets it was beneficial (e.g. newspapers. I remember reading that for every copy of The Sun sold, 4-5 other people would read it, but that wasn't a problem as it meant higher numbers of people seeing the adverts over the base circulation number). Then of course there are places where its actively encourage, such as Libraries, though i'm unsure if they pay some minimal license to royalty collectors?.

    It only appears to be more of an issue now, because its somewhat easier for people to copy stuff that they couldn't necessarily get hold of so easily before and circumvent things like regional releases. Prior to this you'd be limited to your personal network of friends/family.

    Something else is that its only now with digital distribution and 'phone home' type software that we can get a reliable view as to the actual numbers of copies being made, but whilst the reach has certainly gotten wider, i'm not sure you can really claim that things are worse when we have no idea of the numbers prior to this.

    So i'd question whether the 'actual numbers' in regards to piracy has any real relevance.

    Now the first point, every pirate is a lost sale. This is so obviously untrue and judging by various figures about paid vs pirated copies of content, matched to my own purchasing habits between xbox live demo's downloaded vs conversion to paying for the full game, I strongly believe its around 10-15%. Obviously this could be a substantial money value for say you're latest summer blockbuster movie, but is almost negligible for your 1000 copies of an indie game sold.

    That's not to say I condone piracy or happy that the work and effort of developers are losing potentially 10% of their revenue, i'm just not sure its 'that big a deal' and more to the point, nothing like as big a deal to justify the massive expense of implementing a 'driving violation' penalty charge type system ( not talking about having license points added which is a different thing altogether), which in itself has also failed to achieve anything but raise money to pay for government/police forces. In fact i'd argue that its become a tax, which if you are rich enough you can afford to pay when you are caught out.

    So honestly I don't think that 'punishments' are going to make a blind bit of difference to piracy, neither punitive (which have been happening for over a decade now) or marginal such as suggested similarity to 'driving penalties'. Certainly not for 'personal' piracy, commercial piracy is a different thing (i.e. selling downloaded content at a market, in the pub etc), but I could easily see that sector growing massively if you managed to stop or discourage people from download copies personally.

    No the answer is not simply 'punishment', though there are cases where it needs to be available. Instead we must accept a certain level of 'personal' piracy with all content. Which happens for a large number of reasons ( wanting something for nothing, unaffordable, advertising (must have the latest thing), collectors, try before you buy etc, etc), but which the bottom line is that it will only be a small percentage of your potential profit. Its a losing battle that will never be won, i'm surprised no-one has started a 'War on piracy'

    Instead we need to look at ways of maximizing revenues from those consumers who want to purchase our products, or want to align themselves with our product, who are fans of our product. These are the consumers who care about our product, who care about the creativity and effort developers put into their product and whom will support us. Treat these with respect and not draconian DRM and you will flourish.

    You only have to look at how successful some Kickstarter projects have become to see that there are plenty of consumers out their willing to support a product, and a large percentage of them willing to do so above and beyond your basic unit cost price (i.e the higher tiers of rewards over $30-60). This is nothing new, there can't be many people here who haven't at one time or another 'bought' into some franchise, be it a film, pop group, TV series, book, going on beyond any initial cost for the single product and purchasing more (e.g. t-shirts featuring your favourite band).

    Again these are the people we need to tap into whilst using the pirates for free marketing and potentially broadening our fan base into paying/supportive costumers.

    Well that's my opinion anyway, one that has been developing for a over a decade and one which I can't help feeling is going to become more and more the norm, once big corporations suddenly discover there normal consumer/fanbase evaporates the more they hinder paying customers and keep producing crap
    Last edited by Noisecrime; 04-21-2012 at 11:21 PM.


  18. Location
    www.eboncourt.com San Diego
    Posts
    199
    Ah, the Internet religion of Kopimism is rearing its head on this forum. LOL

    So if forestjohnson spent time developing a game and, after he released it, I were to claim the title as my own work and make money off of it, that would be cool, right?


  19. Location
    Gold Coast, Australia
    Posts
    3,593
    Quote Originally Posted by Noisecrime View Post
    Sorry but i'm going to have to disagree with this, not on principle (moral/ethic codes are very important and punishment has its place in society), but on practicality and that I believe it will still fail to make any changes.

    *snip huge post*
    Well you're wrong on a couple points. For a start for all practical points every pirated movie, game etc. is a lost sale. What people don't often understand is that the lost sale isn't necessarily one that hurts the big corporation. Every time linux is ignored in favor of pirated windows, every time stolen 3ds max is used instead of gimp, every time some one plays crysis instead of half a dozen free flash games...

    That's all lost 'sales', and in many instances it helps assert the big corporations dominance. People who pirate lose their vote - to the detriment of others.

    This is the place where I'd counter your argument regarding the prior effects of piracy:

    "Indeed in some markets it was beneficial (e.g. newspapers. "

    Done.


  20. Location
    uk
    Posts
    1,158
    Quote Originally Posted by NPSF3000 View Post
    Well you're wrong on a couple points. For a start for all practical points every pirated movie, game etc. is a lost sale.
    Only if you count every pirated copy literally as a lost sale, not as is in fact the case of someone who would have neither have the means (financial), inclination, or interest in actually owning the product. I guarantee if you had a method to stop all piracy tomorrow you'll sales on products would NOT jump 90%, at best you'd get 10-15%. Not only that but I strongly suspect you'd see profits fall as consumers will become even more cautious with their spending, especially as we know companies would not remove their DRM even though there is no need for it now, no they'll keep it and force you to buy a separate license for a movie for every closed system to watch it on.

    Not sure I follow your logic afterwards, seems very flawed. Who on earth would pirate windows if they wanted Linux in the first pace? Plus Linux is free so where is the lost sale even if they did use it? I assume you mean Photoshop not Max vs gimp, which again gimp is free no lost sale there.

    Seems you are subverting 'sales' to mean that everyone should be using open source projects to stick it to the corporations. Which I actually find worse (well apart from sticking it corps) as suddenly every expects and gets everything fore free legally, then how is anyone to make a living at all? Or perhaps you are proposing a money-less society ala Star Trek?



    This is the place where I'd counter your argument regarding the prior effects of piracy:

    "Indeed in some markets it was beneficial (e.g. newspapers. "

    Done.
    Sorry not following your point here.
    Last edited by Noisecrime; 04-22-2012 at 12:53 AM.

Page 1 of 10 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •