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  1. Posts
    2,144
    Quote Originally Posted by MakerOfGames View Post
    I have heard these kind of statements from pirates first hand.
    I have heard a lot of BS from a lot of pirates first hand too. No one will ever admit publicly they are doing something wrong so they will look for anything they can find to justify their actions.

    I DO agree that a partial solution for piracy is to make things more easily available in a digital format (like iTunes is already doing) but there still will be too many that will keep pirating and now say "oh but I hate Apple because it's evil, and I don't trust Amazon with my credit card, and Google tracks the hell out of everything, and Microsoft is eeeeevil.... so I MUST pirate it!"

    At the end of the day they pirate because they can easily find the piracy, and that's why movie studios are so aggressive against piracy distribution. Making digital content alone easy to get is not the complete solution, you also must make piracy hard to get.

    Music already, in my eyes, overcame this. Music piracy is harder to get than the legal digital download, but movie piracy is still too easy to come up with (despite the risks I mentioned above, that list was just to bust the 2 step lie.) Music is harder to get piracy because of years of aggressive legal departments.

    Games.... games are going it a horrible way. Other than pats in the back to any bill or legal movement that kills piracy, game studios don't seem to invest much in legal assaults, instead they just punish every single user by bloating their titles with absurd DRM acrobatics.

    Bah, I'm rambling...

    Points:
    • Pirates will always make up excuses.
    • Stuidos need to make digital distribution as easy to get as music.
    • Studios also need to make movie piracy as legally challenging as music piracy.
    • Users should fear legal action if they pirate.
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  2. Posts
    1,137
    The thing is, you can't technically prove someone pirated something unless you search their computer. Open routers, hacked computers, other people using computers, all these factors make you a criminal even if you haven't done anything. Not only that, the legal action is ridiculous. A few songs or a movie could land you in debt that you will never be able to pay off since majority of pirates are lower class citizens with limited incomes. Such lawsuits ruin people, ruin families. All that will be left will be hardcore pirates. The casual ones will all be in jail or unable to even afford internet connection any more.
    These media companies sue for ridiculous amount of money. How about suing for realistic amounts that people can actually pay off? You don't see police fining you thousands of dollars for breaking speed limit or parking wrong. And again, the detection system is faulty, making an innocent person pay is just dirty.
    An IP is not a person, it's just a bunch of numbers (or letters too if you're using IPv6). There's thousands of ways to hijack them. I bet quite a lot of casual users have at least some sort of virus or malware that could be used against them.
    And it's not even hurting the big cats. Each movie that comes out breaks box office or something. The movies that fail usually fail not because of piracy but because the movie is genuinely bad. A camrip will never be able to impact theatrical release. And dvd is only for after profits when the theatrical showing ends, corps hardly profit from dvd sales, it's just additional income for the sake of it. Sure there are straight to dvd movies, but again, they're failing because they're bad movies, that's all.
    If piracy is killing industries, how come each year they are grabbing billions of dollars worldwide? I see piracy as a byproduct, not a competitor.
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  3. Super Moderator
    Location
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    I see it as an occupational hazard with potential fan conversion.

    But yes they can indeed prove you've broken the law if you are uploading or "seeding" any torrents. That is provable by law. The reason they don't go for you is not because they don't want you, but because it is actually rather expensive in terms of manpower and so on to go after you. So for now, they have convinced isp's to log everything you do, and leave the task of combating piracy up to the individual ISP. In America this will usually mean something like an email from your isp warning you that your service may be suspended if you continue to pirate stuff.

    The law (in US and UK) allows the police to investigate your complete internet activity for a period of a few months. This is invaluable and I would never try to stop them doing this. It is wonderful because currently the police are using it worldwide to track down paedophile rings

    That is one really, really good thing. Getting rid of proper internet scum like that. So beware of being TOO anti-establishment. Sometimes, it is genuinely for our protection (and the protection of our children).

    I believe we are moving to the cloud if I am not mistaken. Cloud computing (and games that run on the cloud, and even make ingame decisions on the cloud) are coming. These can't be hacked to run at home short of having the server source code, since the code would be executed much like an MMO on the server, while allowing you to play the game at home.

    This isn't like steam, or anything requiring an internet connection, it is placing important game events outside of your computer, which of course can break a game. You can't crack what's not on your computer.

    Downloading the data is also useless because the crackers will have to reverse engineer far more than they do now. It comes to a point where if a cracker has to spend months reverse engineering a game to run off the cloud, he won't bother. It's just not worth anyone's time.

    Right now it doesn't make sense for them to do it. But they know about it. And it's coming. I'll give it about 10 years.

    In the meantime I would expect them to start by offering freemium on the next generation of consoles with much much more internet capability. Seems innocent enough... for now
    Last edited by hippocoder; 04-22-2012 at 03:08 PM.
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  4. Location
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    678
    Quote Originally Posted by forestjohnson View Post
    Wow, it's been a long time since i've posted here, and obviously a lot has changed. I know y'all are a tough crowd when it comes to anti-copyright, being primarily business people and all, but I thought I'd post this as I'm curious what the consensus (or argument) on the issue is...

    ----- 8< ---- McSnip with Cheese ---- 8< ----
    Hi Yoggy,

    1. People give things away for free all the time. This is not new. People were giving stuff away for free long before computers—and even copyright—were even invented. People have even volunteered services—check out "Doctors without Frontiers" for an example—so it's not just physical goods.

    The existence of copyright clearly does not prevent free stuff from being given away. So why remove its protection from those who do need it and use it?

    The RIAA and MPAA can scream and scream and stamp their feet as much as they like, but (a) they have no jurisdiction outside the USA, and (b), they're dinosaurs and they know it. Computers have been slowly democratising every linear medium; without computers and the internet, "Homestar Runner" wouldn't even have been possible.

    2. A key problem with making everything free is Sturgeon's Law: "90% of everything is crud". "Homestar Runner" and "Cave Story" are exceptions; there's a hell of a lot more dirt than diamonds on the internet. This is true of every medium: Sturgeon's Law is also why there never seems to be anything good on TV, despite the ever increasing number of channels.

    One of the services publishers can—and often do—offer is quality control. They're curators of content. You might not necessarily agree with an individual Commissioning Editor's choice of authors to publish, or TV documentaries to produce, but if they're terrible at their job, they won't last long anyway, so it's a self-moderating system at this level.

    3. Some people believe in the concept of "Art". I do not. I believe only in craft. To me, making a game or creating an animation is a work of skill and craftsmanship. A furniture maker is a craftsman. Michelangelo was also a craftsman—artists were employed then for much the same reasons as one would employ an interior decorator today. Yes, Michelangelo's work was considered beautiful, but they also said the same of the Basilica of St. Peter. "Art" is derived from "artisan", which is still a synonym for "craftsman".

    The notion of "Art" as something that can keep art critics in gainful employment is utter balderdash. It's a notion invented by the Victorians, who, contrary to popular myth, didn't get everything right.



    @MakerOfGames:
    Another problem that music and movie industries complain about is user uploaded copyrighted content that they have refused to make available. I am referring to old TV shows and region locked music albums that people pirate.
    They haven't "refused" to make them available. Most businesses worth a damn really do want your money. The problem is that the contracts signed with the people who produced those old TV shows rarely even considered the possibility of home video, let alone the internet.

    The BBC is a classic example: their long-running SF series, "Doctor Who", had many characters created for its many, many episodes over the years. In only the second story—"The Daleks"—the titular antagonists were created by writer Terry Nation. At the time it was standard practice for a character's creator to retain the rights to his character. Ergo, whenever the BBC have used the Dalek characters since—and they have, many, many times, as they were very popular—Terry Nation (and, today, his estate) had to be asked and paid money first.

    (Also, back then, it wasn't unusual for older video recordings to be wiped in favour of newer recordings. Videotape was very expensive. The BBC were wiping tapes well into the 1970s.)

    Furthermore, broadcasters like ABC and CBS (in the US), ITV (and in recent years) the BBC (UK), would often just buy in a programme made by an outside production company. Verity Lambert's "Euston Films", for example, made a lot of shows for ITV in the UK. The rights to those programmes are held by Euston Films. With all the buy-outs, mergers and whatnot over the years, it can be very difficult to work out who owns the rights to what.

    Music, on the other hand, is complicated by the simple fact that a singer may be signed up to different record labels in each territory. E.g. RCA in one country, BMI in another, Virgin in a third, and so on. As with television, there have been a lot of mergers, spin-offs, buy-outs, and so on over the years. The upshot is that, in some cases, the rights to some old, or obscure, records may be so hard to track down that it's probably just not worth the effort.

    Again: businesses DO want your money. The problem with the internet is that it has formed into a massive community of the ignorant. While we, here, in this forum bewail the neophytes who want to create a WoW-beating MMORPG overnight on a shoestring budget as examples of such ignorance in our field, we are not alone:

    Novelists are constantly asked to write-up someone's "idea for a great novel" (with a 50:50 split, because, naturally, having that "idea" was extremely hard and said novelist is bound to be glad of it).

    Train drivers are accused of being paid big money for doing little more than pushing a lever, pressing a few buttons, and checking the doors (never mind that said drivers also have to help scrape bits of dead human off their train whenever someone decides to jump in front of it; or that said drivers are also responsible for the safety of every passenger on their train should anything go wrong; in most cases, they're also trained to perform basic maintenance and repairs to get the train moving again if it's failed).

    Lawyers are constantly berated for raking in money and charging huge hourly rates, despite the fact that learning how to be a successful lawyer in any country with a legal system like that of the UK or US means committing the results and rulings of many hundreds of legal cases to memory—the cases that set important precedents. These precedents indicate how a judge may rule on a similar case in future, but it's not that simple and all that rote learning is bloody hard work. (And, of course, these people literally hold your future in their hands. If they f*ck it up, they can get into serious trouble and, by law, may even have to leave their chosen career.)


    In short, we are just as ignorant as the newbies who demand professional help at just $100 / day for their awesome MMORPG. We're just ignorant in different fields. We should be a little less quick to criticise other professions when we're just as ignorant of them as most of them are of ours.

    The Victorian engineers were generalists, but it is impossible to know everything there is to know about every topic today, so this is something we'll have to learn to adapt to. The most difficult stage in our species' socio-cultural evolution will be to realise that everyone is ignorant and, most importantly, how we can find out what we need to know before expressing an opinion on a topic we don't know much, if anything, about.

    I'm British, so naturally I crave disappointment. Therefore, I'm not going to hold my breath for that one.
    Sean Baggaley

    Author of "Tic-Tac-Tut" turn-based game tutorial. Get it from the Asset Store here! (Tic-Tac-Toe game with illustrated 40-page documentation.)

    "Tic-Tac-Tut" turn-based game tutorial support thread.


  5. Posts
    1,969
    Spotify is something that eliminates the temtation to pirate , I actually pay 10$ a month to use it, its a great service, the only thing thats annoying is some songs in albums aren't available on spotify since the labels consider them to valuable . Anyway for the most part its a fantastic service
    http://beatquestgame.com

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  6. Posts
    2,144
    Quote Originally Posted by Morning View Post
    Such lawsuits ruin people, ruin families. All that will be left will be hardcore pirates. The casual ones will all be in jail or unable to even afford internet connection any more.
    I refer you back to my previous post on how individuals should be treated over piracy.

    It is possible to nail down if some one actually pirated something, with the help of an ISP. A suspect downloader can be flagged and then monitored until a pattern. Via monitoring you can determine if the piracy is for personal use or some virulent activity is hijacking the user's computer. It's possible even without accessing the user's computer. At that point you can demand access to the user's wireless router if needed to find out exact point of access.

    Even when detected, as I noted before, legal action about personal use downloaders should be limited to, at worst, small claim courts (where lawyers are not allowed and there is a relatively low cap to how much money can be awarded to the prosecution.)

    My point is not that such individuals should fear their lives be ruined, but they should fear pirating as much as they fear going 50 in a 35 MPH limit zone.

    To be honest, prosecution is not even required, I seen a lot of people chicken out and stop all piracy activity when they get caught by Comcast and get the first "stop or we will cancel your service" letter.
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  7. Location
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    3,593
    Quote Originally Posted by Noisecrime View Post
    Finally a direct question/counter argument, though not a very interesting one.

    Its quite simple, the money was never there in the first place. What you think everyone has piles of cash hidden under their bed? Obviously some products would get the money, but eventually that person runs out of disposable income, so quickly find that large numbers of products could not be paid for.
    Then you end up with a situation were either:

    People are so lazy that they want to consume media they haven't the money to buy. Which is bad because it defeats one of the most important aspects of capitalism [work for what you want], as well as distorting markets. There are a LOT of book authors out there today better off because I could not buy Star Trek on DVD due to pricing and refused to pirate.

    People need software vital to their living [e.g. Windows] but simply cannot afford it. Firstly, this does not represent a lot of pirates - as an Australian our dole is sufficient to buy these items and yet we have a large piracy problem. Secondly, it highlights huge socioeconomic problems that should be addressed, and much like petty theft is not an adequate solution to the problem.

    My concern, which I may not have explained better earlier, is that many people [even in this thread] who try to 'justify' piracy are simply supporting self-harming practices. For example: by pirating a game because it's 'too expensive' has a direct and negative impact upon those who create free or low cost games. That's without even beginning to cover issues such as 'entitlement' which I would suggest be fundamentally flawed and damaging in the long term.


  8. Location
    Stockholm
    Posts
    693
    Quote Originally Posted by keithsoulasa View Post
    Spotify is something that eliminates the temtation to pirate , I actually pay 10$ a month to use it, its a great service, the only thing thats annoying is some songs in albums aren't available on spotify since the labels consider them to valuable . Anyway for the most part its a fantastic service
    Exactly. There are ways to beat the piracy but its not using stricter laws and more surveillance. Just simply make a service that is more attractive than what piracy offers. Which frankly isn't all that hard.
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  9. Posts
    1,137
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharsman View Post
    I refer you back to my previous post on how individuals should be treated over piracy.

    It is possible to nail down if some one actually pirated something, with the help of an ISP. A suspect downloader can be flagged and then monitored until a pattern. Via monitoring you can determine if the piracy is for personal use or some virulent activity is hijacking the user's computer. It's possible even without accessing the user's computer. At that point you can demand access to the user's wireless router if needed to find out exact point of access.
    I am not a networking expert but I think it doesn't work like that.
    If someone else is using your router, it will light up on the pattern checker too. Not to mention how will you detect these patterns?
    When you're torrenting you can only see what the person is downloading if you're connected to the torrent too. Otherwise it just looks like generic p2p traffic that would take a lot of resources to filter it out assuming you're a big ISP. When it's HTTP it gets even harder unless you start reading file names and everything, but that would be considered an intrusion of privacy.

    Then we also got viruses, what if you're a part of a botnet that does illegal things? It's not your fault if someone secretly is cooking meth in your house without you knowing.
    And if you demand access to user's router, what are you going to get from it? A temporary list of connections? That's not going to help anyone.

    While I as a developer don't support piracy, this is not the way to beat it.
    Such system would turn people paranoid too. What if a friend comes over but he has uTorrent on and starts downloading or uploading things? You're getting a warning/fine for something you didn't do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tharsman View Post
    Even when detected, as I noted before, legal action about personal use downloaders should be limited to, at worst, small claim courts (where lawyers are not allowed and there is a relatively low cap to how much money can be awarded to the prosecution.)
    I do agree with this solution here. First time offenders imo should get away with a warning, second timers a small fee and have big case only when they're re offending multiple times.


    One thing some people are missing is that casual pirates, even if they don't pay, are great for advertising. Even if he doesn't pay, he tells friend who instead buys the thing.
    The only thing IP catching or otherwise will achieve is it will cause piracy to evolve and become even more secure. If such hunting was active enough, soon pirates will start using always on encryption and what not. I also would feel really bad knowing my ISP is sniffing my traffic.
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  10. Location
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    147
    One thing some people are missing is that casual pirates, even if they don't pay, are great for advertising. Even if he doesn't pay, he tells friend who instead buys the thing.
    Not really. He tells his friend, and burns him a disc with the game on it.


  11. Posts
    2,377
    Honestly, I don't care much about the opinions of piracy from those who haven't actually created anything; however, I'm always interested in the opinions of those who have distributed things.
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  12. Posts
    355
    Quote Originally Posted by sybixsus2 View Post
    It makes me sad that all young people can find to rail against these days is not getting enough free stuff. In the past, people protested for peace, tried to stop nuclear proliferation, campaigned for equal treatment for women, people of other races and people of other sexualities. These days, the best they can come up with is "I can't create anything of value, so why should people who can be allowed to benefit from it?" Sure, they dress it up and make it sound political, but the message is still the message no matter how you paint it.


    Equally, jealousy is the root of the other side of the problem.
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  13. Posts
    2,144
    Quote Originally Posted by Morning View Post
    I am not a networking expert but I think it doesn't work like that.
    Possession of child pornography is a heavily prosecuted crime. It's monitoring online is extremely extensive and has nearly surgical precission. Sure, once in a while one case comes up of a guy's door being knocked down because it was his neighbor downloading the material over his open wifi network, but even those cases end up clearing up and prosecuting the right guy at the end of the day.

    The technology is there, and has been in place for years. It's just not used for things like these due to privacy rights. Anti-child pornography laws tend to have larger powers acossiated with them than anti-terrorism laws, so no one can say no to an agent that is in the midle of such a pursuit.

    If someone else is using your router, it will light up on the pattern checker too.
    As noted above, an investigation's first step would be to get their hands on your router to look at router logs.

    Not to mention how will you detect these patterns? When you're torrenting you can only see what the person is downloading if you're connected to the torrent too.
    And where you get the torrent file from? ISPs monitor that stuff. It's relatively easy, depending how much the ISP logs. Example:

    1. Look at a guy's ISP side log
    2. He went to the pirate bay at this time...
    3. He got this torrent file at this other time...
    4. Heavy P2P traffic inmediately started up...
    5. We go back and look at the torrent he downloaded....
    6. We connect to it ourselves...
    7. We see his IP address is associated with it...
    8. We look at logs to see if his computer has been signaled by an outside machine to do anything remotely (like a botnet being signaled to downlaod and then seed a torrent)
    9. We file an ocurrence, once 3 or more equal incidents shows up for this same user, we trigger a real world investigation.


    What is most, ISPs can (and most do) log every single URL you visit, every single file you download, in a huge history that makes Google look like a privacy advocate. ISPs tend to keep it short, though, delete it within a month or so (if they see no reason to retain it, I heard of ISP employees that were able to see a year worth of their own home browsing history.) It's all indexed in a database and easy to search if the FBI shows up asking for a specific users data.

    All this is easy to automate too, so a report can be spit out daily on suspicious activity, if law demanded it.

    And if you demand access to user's router, what are you going to get from it? A temporary list of connections? That's not going to help anyone.
    Depends how throughout the forensics team goes. Even in cases where the data is only retained short term, routers do not zero out with multiple passes old logs. With the right equipment, the data can be recovered and you can get exact time of action, MAC address of the computer that opened p2p connections and match it against the above data.

    At that point they can go further deeper into it and confiscate the specified computer, should they decide to go that far.
    Again: we already do this for incidents of child pornography possession.

    Such system would turn people paranoid too.
    Part of the point, although you should be paranoid already if you know what ISPs know about you

    What if a friend comes over but he has uTorrent on and starts downloading or uploading things? You're getting a warning/fine for something you didn't do.
    For one, you should be a bit more responsible about who you let into your network. Second, after checking, the Mac address may never be found in your household so the only inconvenience you will suffer would be going through the entire investigation. Also remember, this is not an “this or that” proposal, I would never agree to this level of pursuit without a requirement for minor fines or small claim court treatment for such cases.

    One thing some people are missing is that casual pirates, even if they don't pay, are great for advertising. Even if he doesn't pay, he tells friend who instead buys the thing.
    Separate topic, but as a copyright owner, it should be up to me if I wish to allow free distribution of my product or not. Also, although I heard this theory a lot, I known plenty of pirates that do the opposite: mock those that pay for anything. They recommend, yes, but they psychologically bully others for doing the right thing and pay.

    The only thing IP catching or otherwise will achieve is it will cause piracy to evolve and become even more secure.
    Perhaps, but again, same holds true for child pornography yet we don’t see it happening. Even so, at that point piracy becomes so hard, that it’s more of a hazel than it’s worth, and a lot of people will just skip on it or buy.
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  14. Location
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRavey View Post
    Honestly, I don't care much about the opinions of piracy from those who haven't actually created anything; however, I'm always interested in the opinions of those who have distributed things.
    I remember the first game I worked on. When we found it on piratebay we cheered. "Wohooo people see and play our game!"
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  15. Posts
    2,377
    That's probably how I'd feel because my first one only made a few thousand and my 2nd (which is OSX only) only made a couple of hundred in the last month and a half. I suppose if I had been involved in something that sold hundreds of thousands of copies, I might feel differently, but I've never been there so I wouldn't know.
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  16. Posts
    1,137
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharsman View Post
    Perhaps, but again, same holds true for child pornography yet we don’t see it happening. Even so, at that point piracy becomes so hard, that it’s more of a hazel than it’s worth, and a lot of people will just skip on it or buy.
    Actually it's already happening. It's called TOR network. It has CP, Drugs, weapons and many more illegal things that make me shrug by just thinking about it. And worst part is, it's anonymous so unless you post your name there, there's pretty much no chance of getting caught.
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  17. Posts
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morning View Post
    Actually it's already happening. It's called TOR network. It has CP, Drugs, weapons and many more illegal things that make me shrug by just thinking about it. And worst part is, it's anonymous so unless you post your name there, there's pretty much no chance of getting caught.
    *cough*

    As long as the network has a way for non-tor users to access it (sort of required for piracy to be easy to use,) it will have a huge back door.
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  18. Posts
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tharsman View Post
    *cough*

    As long as the network has a way for non-tor users to access it (sort of required for piracy to be easy to use,) it will have a huge back door.
    Anyone who uses TOR for torrenting is not right in the head anyway. The speeds are comparable to dial up.
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  19. Location
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    678
    Most selfish counterfeiters fit this old load of USENET tosh I posted many moons ago.

    Ultimately, it boils down to people thinking they are entitled to the fruits of another's labours without paying anything back at all. Counterfeiting (let's call it what it is) doesn't harm the publishers and record labels one whit: it harms the creators, because it means nobody in the value chain gets paid! How is that any more "fair" than what the publishers already do? At least publishers actually pay the artists some money. Even if it's not as much as many creatives would like, "some" is still greater than "nothing".

    Those who wish to give their work away for free are more than welcome to do so—there's even a term for it: "Public Domain". (Note: Richard Stallman has gone out of his way to keep that term out of the public consciousness in favour of his own flavour of "freedom", but I don't believe gifts should have any strings attached. Nevertheless, you can choose one of the flavours of "Creative Commons", GPL, BSD or other licenses if you prefer, although only Public Domain has ever been tested fully in court—and it's the only concept that is supported in almost every jurisdiction.)

    Copyright laws may need tweaking and updating to meet today's needs, but the notion that Copyright—as a core concept—is "obsolete" makes no sense at all. China, for all its cheap labour, does not rank high in creativity. Neither the iPhone nor the iPad were invented there. They didn't invent the home computer. They have some good research labs and universities, but the nature of Chinese society, culture and politics means most of the really good Chinese researchers tend to go to places where creativity is held in much greater esteem. And that isn't China.

    Kill intellectual property rights and you'll kill most Western economies, which are mostly based on tertiary, not primary or secondary, industries.
    Last edited by stimarco; 04-23-2012 at 12:30 PM.
    Sean Baggaley

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  20. Location
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    1,158
    Quote Originally Posted by NPSF3000 View Post
    People are so lazy that they want to consume media they haven't the money to buy. Which is bad because it defeats one of the most important aspects of capitalism [work for what you want], as well as distorting markets. There are a LOT of book authors out there today better off because I could not buy Star Trek on DVD due to pricing and refused to pirate.
    Sorry not to have replied sooner, got tied up with work, then I wrote a massive post that just continued the same old points, so tried to cut it right down.

    Interesting, this reply really shows me that we are pretty much at opposite ends of the spectrum in regards to consumerism, what it means and where its going. As such I doubt we'll ever be in agreement and will just have to wait a decade to see who was right

    I do take issue with this first comment and the assumption that all pirates 'don't have the money' and are therefore lazy. Whilst I'm sure there are some who fit that bill, I'd be massively surprised if the actual breakdown isn't spread evenly across all walks of life. Pretty much just how those who took part in the looting last year in the UK.

    My concern, which I may not have explained better earlier, is that many people [even in this thread] who try to 'justify' piracy are simply supporting self-harming practices. For example: by pirating a game because it's 'too expensive' has a direct and negative impact upon those who create free or low cost games. That's without even beginning to cover issues such as 'entitlement' which I would suggest be fundamentally flawed and damaging in the long term.
    I have to agree about sense of entitlement and that it is hard to 'justify' pirating, which I don't, I just accept it happens and don't beleive the majority of it actually impacts content creators and can if used right be an advatage. So I can understand you point of view better now, but to be honest its one that I think is destined for failure. Its interesting that you bring up capitalism and that 'this is how its got to be in order for capitalism to continue'. Have you not considered that capitalism, at least how we know it might not be a dying breed and that media content is just the first to fall?

    I admit I am concerned that my stance comes from someone who grew up without the feeling of entitlement and as such that I see the value in supporting and purchasing products. That this generation might be missing that and so its a downward spiral to nothingness, but I don't think that will happen. People will always have money (until we have a moneyless society ) and a percentage of it will be disposable, but its up to the content creators to get them to spend it on their goods and not to concern themselves with those who pirate and the majority of which would never have bought the product in the first place.

    I have all manor of links, articles, video and other stuff to give some support to my viewpoint, though far too much to post here and I doubt you'd be interested in shifting through it all. I will however post this interview with Cory Doctorow which has some very interesting opinions presented through out, especially towards the end about copyright, pirating and how to make a living in the new world. Its 28 minutes long, but you can have it on in the background and just listen.


    Edit:
    Just realised why i'm so keen to argue against your point.

    The problem is that with this obsession towards pirates (companies not you) we end up getting closed systems and DRM, every day we seem to be more and more limited in what we can do with our purchase and moving ever more towards a pure licensing model.

    That in itself might not be too bad, but then you have the closed systems, can I move my Amazon kindle ebooks to my iPad (i'm guessing not), can I move my App store movies from my iPad to my my Windows 8 phone? No. These type of restriction I feel increase peoples exposure to pirating too, so in many ways its important to understand the breakdown of why people are 'technically' pirating stuff, even though they may already own a version.
    Last edited by Noisecrime; 04-24-2012 at 01:01 AM.

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