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Windows 8

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Trackpants, Mar 2, 2012.

  1. Trackpants

    Trackpants

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    So the windows 8 Consumer preview has been released, I've downloaded it and am using it at the moment. It now has an app store, to me this seem's like a great way for more PC developed games to get exposure, seeing as the app store comes built into the OS just like in mac. What are other peoples thoughts on Windows 8 and their apps.
     
  2. Starsman Games

    Starsman Games

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    I'm extra excited about it, both as a developer and a consumer.

    I am worried about Unity supporting it. They only allow Metro apps in the app store and at least during startup Unity calls a standard OS dialog box. I think that's enough for games made with Unity not to be approved. I guess it can be suppressed, but not sure if the code existing in the binary is reason alone for the app to be rejected.
     
  3. Starsman Games

    Starsman Games

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  4. Trackpants

    Trackpants

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    Thanks for the link, extremely informative. A few of the requirements are a bit worrying.

    "3.1 Your app must use only APIs for Metro style apps
    The APIs for Metro style apps are described in the Metro style apps API reference. Your app must also not link to, depend on, or otherwise make use of APIs or Windows OS services outside those described in the Metro style apps API reference."
    That is where unity would come into play as you have said, it's a bit worrying, but it makes sense seeing as windows 8 is used across a wide range of devices.

    "3.5 Your app must fully support touch interactions as described in the Windows 8 touch language
    Your app must provide visual feedback when users touch interactive elements.
    Your app must fully support touch input as well as keyboard and mouse input. Customers must also be able to access all of your app's functionality using only touch interactions. The Windows 8 touch language is described in Touch interaction design."
    That also worries me a little bit, but makes sense all the same for the above reason. It's a bit silly that they don't let you just release an app for a normal PC, or a touch only app phones/tablets. It's weird that you are forced to support both, rather then one or the other like mac have done.

    This bit of text was taken from 6.2 "Apps with a rating over PEGI 16, ESRB MATURE, or a corresponding rating under other ratings systems, are not allowed."
    That's more of a personal for me, but seeing as how Nintendo had denied The Binding of Isaac, due to religious reasons, it means a lot of things won't make it onto the store. I don't quite understand why we have Ratings for entertainment mediums, when even with those ratings, some things can't be sold.


    On the topic of Windows 8, I was reading nothing but bad thing's about it on RPS (Where I found out about the OS), everyone seems to think that the new start menu, has replaced the old desktop, which it hasn't. They both run in tandem, and I honestly find the new start menu with search function, a more efficient way of finding a certain app, rather then trying to find it on your desktop or accessing it through the old start bar. (Windows Key, Type name of app, press enter) That is way easier imo.
     
  5. HolBol

    HolBol

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    I downloaded it immediatly, infact, I'm in it now.

    To be honest, the changes are gonna scare a lot of people, but if they spend the time to remember where things are, it becomes very efficeint to use. Unity works well on it too.
    Also, Unity won't be able to do Metro apps, If i recall. But who needs to, if you can just pump out a standard .exe. I just hope they put in Windows ARM support.
     
  6. Trackpants

    Trackpants

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    Also using Windows 8 right now, and to me it is a lot more efficient.

    The benefit of making a metro app would be the exposure you'd have to the casual PC user. But apart from that, it seem's like an even more restrictive environment then the iOS app store.
     
  7. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Some dudes already have unity running on windows phone, so I'm sure they'll manage this. I forgot the URL but it seems interesting - some sort of weird wrapper.
     
  8. Jaimi

    Jaimi

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    At BUILD, they claimed you would be able to have non-metro apps on the app store, but that they wouldn't be able to be hosted, auto-downloaded, patched (etc). You would have to host them yourselves.
     
  9. Starsman Games

    Starsman Games

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    The comments of not supporting Metro were specific to the Windows Phone 7 because it does not allow native code. Windows 8 Metro should have no such roadblocks. Also, the App Store is something you wont be able to ignore if you want to make money. We are quickly entering an age where users will fear downloading any executable file from anyone but official app stores.

    If you are talking about the thing I think you are, and I cant recall exactly where I did, it's not really Unity but some framework or something that allows you to port your objects and classes to work inside XNA... may be wrong.

    Unfortunately, the current page reflecting ther current standing does specify only metro apps will be allowed. Microsoft has been chainging their mind back and forth on many Win8 issues over the past year, they may change their mind again, but right now officially we will need Unity to support WinRT export. Hopefully they will sneak it in a small update soon and we wont have to wait for Unity 4 or 3.6
     
  10. Ayrik

    Ayrik

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    I have no worries or doubts that Unity will pull through for us, because they always do.
     
  11. Trackpants

    Trackpants

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    If Unity did support WinRT, do you think we would have to pay for the export option? Obviously no one knows this excluding the unity team, but what would you speculate
     
  12. Starsman Games

    Starsman Games

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    My worry is timing. Being there on day one is going to be very meaningful.

    I highly doubt they would charge for WinRT export, just as they dont charge for Intel or PowerPC only exports on the mac. It's not out of the realm of posibilities but it is highly unlikely.
     
  13. jeffweber

    jeffweber

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    I would not have problem paying for a Win8-Metro / Win Phone 8 version of Unity. It'd be in line with them charging for iOS and Android.

    The Win8 desktop version could still be kept free since it should run as-is on Win8.

    I actually hope they do plan to charge for it otherwise I see no incentive for them to do it.

    I'm hoping they announce something at GDC, but not holding my breath.
     
  14. Starsman Games

    Starsman Games

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    I would gladly pay for the ARM/Phone exports, and although I would pay for Win8 export I think it should at least be built into Unity Pro at no extra charge.
     
  15. PrimeDerektive

    PrimeDerektive

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    Man, from a UI design perspective, I'm really not digging how they shoehorned the styles of old school windows with metro at all. This is terrible flow:



     
  16. Swearsoft

    Swearsoft

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    I remember making my xp look as cool as windows 7, now i'll have to do the same with windows 8???
     
  17. Statharas

    Statharas

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  18. OmniverseProduct

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    Windows 8? Heck I'm still on vista! Woe is me!
     
  19. FusionGames

    FusionGames

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    You're still using Vista?!

    Woe is you indeed.
     
  20. lmbarns

    lmbarns

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    Im on XP at work :O



    To OP:
    Bleh, yet ANOTHER browser to support as a web developer. Cause IE isn't tempermental enough as it is :(

    No start menu, after all we've been through (since windows 3.11)???? wtf

    I had to take the 70-680 win7 certification and ever since I'm pretty bitter towards MS as a whole, releasing halfassed products. Even my friggin 70-680 book had 85 pages of corrections....and I had to buy the revised edition (at full price) after spending $80 on the broken book.
     
  21. CharlieSamways

    CharlieSamways

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    Im stuck on XP, do you need windows 7 to get this running? where can I find the specs for running it.


    Im eager to see this in action, although I have doubts on it.
     
  22. Starsman Games

    Starsman Games

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    To be honest the start menu has become so cluttered that it's useless. Used to be easy to use in a fresh install of Win95, but today even a fresh Win7 install is bloated with apps and a crazy browse structure (why the hell is the calculator under accessories?)

    It has come to the point where they had to give us a search box to be able to find our stuff! I don't recall the last time I actually used the start menu for anything but search it (well I have used the most recent list at the front.)
     
  23. lmbarns

    lmbarns

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    You can at least add shortcuts to the top level of the start menu and customize it however you want, also the main use was getting to various sections like control panel, home folder, etc with 2 clicks.

    Also a less functional version (no plugins supported) of IE as an additional browser when there are already half a dozen "mainstream", very functional, browsers (IE, FF, Chrome, Safari, Opera, etc)??? Why???
     
  24. Morning

    Morning

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    It's weird how we go from basic to glass and back to basic. All these sharp corners will cut my cursor in half.
     
  25. Chris Aoki

    Chris Aoki

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    I think you have to own a copy of windows 7 to be eligible for the windows 8 beta.
     
  26. Starsman Games

    Starsman Games

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    I really want plugins to fade away, so I'm glad about that, however it's my understanding that classic mode IE still supports plugins, it's metro IE that wont (and that's the only IE that will ship with Windows 8 for ARM.)

    As for the start menu now, I can also pin apps to the task bar itself now, a more useful place for often used apps.
     
  27. lmbarns

    lmbarns

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    How is "pinning" apps different from creating a desktop or taskbar shortcut?

    As far as plugins, so Unity web player shouldn't be supported? Flash? Adblock? etc? Silverlight? Youtube? Netflix???

    Question remains...Why is this better?? Offers nothing and takes away a lot. What justifies installing it other than it's "new"? What justifies adapting a website to potential metro users, does it support web standards, how does it perform running javascript, html5, etc??? MS is lost in the mobile race, day late, dollar short, minimal mobile marketshare, worthless product.

    FULL FEATURED IE is already the worst of the top 5 browsers available to desktops.

    What good is a S***tier version of the worst desktop browser available???????? :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2012
  28. HolBol

    HolBol

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    If you can run windows 7, you can run 8. Same system requirements. Just download the ISO, burn it to a dvd and install on a separate partition if you're unsure whether you're goingt o completely upgrade.

    My set-up is an example- I have Windows 7 on one partition, which I use the most. If I very quickly need to use my PC for the internet, I currently use my win8 partition, because it's so much faster than 7 on my PC.

    But yeah, you can go from xp straight to 8.


    Ok- the metro IE 10 supports HTML5 and JavaScript fine. No flash player, but it supports the HTML5 <video> and <audio> tags. It's great to use for quick surfing, but I instantly downloaded firefox as my default browser when I installed Windows 8.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2012
  29. Starsman Games

    Starsman Games

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    They are visible at all times without having to pull up menus or minimize full screen apps. Much faster to open apps and once open they are going to be there anyways, so it's not like they take too much room if they are frequently used, if they are rarely used you would not want to pin them in the start menu either and will still have to search them in today's cluttered start menus.

    I personally find the unity web player a bit of a novelty. I have not seen a viable way to monetize it, and only use it for beta test distrubution. Flash, well Adobe is in the works to create tools that export to HTML5, in a few years that will be the standard.

    Adblock not only is designed to kill free websites (since they survive off ad impressions) but is not really a web content plugin. I'm all for that kind of functionality increase in browsers and is one reason why I use firefox over other browsers, but I hate content in the web that requires plugins to view. Silverlight is being slowly phased out by microsoft and youtube can run in HTML5.


    Faster, lighter on memory, gets off the way between your app and CPU. Same with websistes, by being faster, complex JavaScript will run faster as there is less cpu hugging by the rest of the OS or the browser. Flash alone can kill battery life in computers even when iddle.


    IE is getting much better and better at supporting web standards with each version, and killing flash is not a bad thing for an open standard web (remember, Flash is proprietary and everyone serving flash media servers has to pay Adobe to do so.)
     
  30. lmbarns

    lmbarns

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    Uhh you can monetize a web game just as well as any standalone, if not moreso since you likely have a larger market....

    You can "pin" programs to your taskbar, which are visible, usable with 1 click even with 10 other windows open and fullscreen.

    IF it's faster, I'll change my opinion. Here's the html5 tile engine I use for my canvas games: http://simplehotkey.com/Tiles/main.html can someone tell me if it's faster on Metro than on IE?? It's tested and works on IE, FF, Safari, Chrome(best), and Opera......
     
  31. Starsman Games

    Starsman Games

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    Hmmm, only way I can see "monetizing" web games is with micro-transactions and that seems to be a market cornered by Facebook and also one that does not apply to many games very well, seems only time management grind games capitalize that well. The other form is ads and ad revenue tends to be a joke.

    With standalone you sell copies. You can't do that with web apps. In theory you can lock access to the game unless they pay but everyone I hear tried it failed, people just are not likely to pay for web games.

    If you know of a model that where you can properly monetize, lets say, a side scrolling flash game, please, let us know. I would really love to hear about it.
     
  32. HolBol

    HolBol

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    I think you're a tad confused. We're talking about IE FOR the MetroUI, and the Desktop IE.
     
  33. lmbarns

    lmbarns

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    1) Customer makes an account, purchases "sidescroller wars" for 0.99, which gives them a key to access the game. No key, no play. It's the same as buying a digital version of an app, either you pay and have access or you don't.

    2) Item shop/store, additional levels/content, upgrades/interface, even on S***ty html5 games like "Lord of Ultima" (simplest example I can think of) or a Unity-like game "Lord of the Rings Online" is F2P and looks like a unity game...

    3) Subscription model (for good multiplayer games)

    4) Selling the source (saw a browser based flash xml parser that sold over 1200 copies @ $40 each = $48k ) The actual program wasn't worth $10 by itself but 1200 people found it worthwhile to buy the source for their personal uses/implementations. I'm looking for the site, there were some basic Unity "starter" packages that had made around several grand off far less than a completed game. Site was similar to graphicriver and activeden but wasn't either of those.

    Top selling flash code on Activeden:
    http://activeden.net/category/flash?utf8=✓&sort_by=sales_count&categories=flash&page=1 (look at the top flash "banner rotator" has sold 2110 copies at $15 = $60,650)

    Top Unity packages on activeden: (much newer and less sales but this is one of many sites that do this and these aren't nearly completed games but rather single mechanics/starter packs) http://activeden.net/category/unity-3d?utf8=✓&sort_by=sales_count&categories=unity-3d&page=1

    Additional notes: webplayer has large market, not everyone can download and install games on their work computers but can still play browser based games. Similarly being able to access and play your game from anywhere is huge and unity makes 3d browser games far superior to flash based "browser games".

    Also your code is more protected from being cracked when the guts of it are on a protected server.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2012
  34. Dreamora

    Dreamora

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    WinRT + DX11, keep in mind that Win8 won't accept anything else on the store, so Unity with its deprecated DX9 will have some problems getting accepted even with WinRT
     
  35. lmbarns

    lmbarns

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    ??

    He stated Metro was:
    I asked to run my purely html5 javascript tile engine on Metro version and windows 7 and tell me how true this claim above is???? The canvas says how many fps it gets, chrome is by far the fastest since it converts javascript to machine code at runtime.........curious to see if Microsoft actually is going to try to compete...or is it just marketing(most likely)? I can already use Google's v8 javascript engine within IE with chrome frames' plugin.

    edit: to clarify statement above about Chrome performing fastest with javascript being compiled
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2012
  36. keithsoulasa

    keithsoulasa

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    I'm sure once Windows 8 comes out officially Unity will find a way to support it, as in apps directly to the Win8 app store .

    This is very nice, since I can push my game out for 4 platforms at once .
     
  37. Starsman Games

    Starsman Games

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    @Imbarns, other than farm-type games in Facebook with the item shop model, do you know of any title that has been successful with any of the models listed. And selling the code is not a real option as that's just selling the code of a game that may as well be standalone, the point is monetizing Flash games.

    As for the web player, you need to install it. If you don't have the security needed to download an exe and run it (no install necessary with Unity games since they are mostly stand-alone), you don't have the security needed to install the web player either. The code cracking point seems insignificant, I seen unity browser games be entirely downloaded and reposted in other sites, seen the topic come up in these forums various times.

    I am not looking just to shoot down points or argue, I am honestly interested in any real evidence of those monetization models working at all for a developer and how those developers did it.
     
  38. lmbarns

    lmbarns

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    Battlestar galactica is a unity game with micropayments.

    World of Midgard is a unity made mmo for mobile devices, I guess not a browser game, not sure how it's funded it's in open beta http://www.worldofmidgard.com/

    Fusionfall f2p unity browser game developed by Cartoon Network and Grigon Entertainment http://mmohuts.com/browser-games/fusionfall

    Tiger Woods Online f2p unity browser game by Electronic Arts: http://mmohuts.com/browser-games/tiger-woods-online

    Captains of Dark Tide f2p unity browser game: http://mmohuts.com/browser-games/captains-of-darktide

    Ruined Online f2p unity browser game: http://browser-game.mmogamesite.com/ruined-online.html

    Mummy Online f2p unity browser game: http://themummy.bigpoint.com/ f2p browser unity game

    Juggernaut f2p unity browser game: http://www.juggergame.com/

    Dungeon Empires f2p unity browser game: http://dungeon-empires.browsergamez.com/

    Star Trek – Infinite Space f2p unity browser game: http://startrek-is.com/

    UberStrike (used to be a different name): http://www.mmofront.com/uberstrike.html

    I'm sure there's plenty of others that don't broadcast being created with Unity...but these are all browser based f2p either through ads, micropayments, stores, etc...I was interested to know myself....
     
  39. Starsman Games

    Starsman Games

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    I think all those are micro transaction games with item shops. Sure they do break the farm-type gameplay but they are still grind feasts to progress through or to be competitive. An option, but not the option I really am looking for.

    So, were you able to find any game that actually uses the "one time payment for full game access" or "monthly fee" models? I know of many monthly fee MMOs but all seem to be purchase based stand-alone games, and those also seem to be slowly departing from the monthly model for a free-to-play option.
     
  40. Trackpants

    Trackpants

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    Moving away from sellings games in a browser.

    I can't help but feel that some of you are judging windows 8 before using it. The start menu isn't "gone" it's just been re-incarnated, and to be honest, it is a lot better then the old start menu. Windows 8 hasn't taken anything away from me, the user, as far as I can tell, all they did was change the start bar, make it run a S*** load quicker, add the Metro UI and app store and give me my "UP" buttons back.
     
  41. npsf3000

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  42. HolBol

    HolBol

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    To be honest, I'd agree all the way there.
     
  43. Don-Gray

    Don-Gray

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    What are you guys using for a virus scanner?
    The compatibility run said my Avast wasn't compatible.
     
  44. TylerPerry

    TylerPerry

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    Meh, who needs virus protection :D
     
  45. Trackpants

    Trackpants

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    I honestly have never used virus protection, but I'm pretty sure windows has a build in virus protection as of windows 7 and onwards, I could be wrong. Microsoft Security Essentials I believe it is called
     
  46. IcyPeak

    IcyPeak

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    It's not built-in (Windows Defender, a very basic removal tool, is, as well as a firewall), but MSE is pretty solid detection-wise and completely unobtrusive to the user. I have it installed on all of my computers as well as Malwarebytes Pro, together they provide a nice security net (obviously, normal usage patterns still apply for avoiding viruses/malware). As far as not using any anti-virus, I do wonder how well people understand the risks of not doing so and not practicing safe browsing/installation usage. If you don't have any AV, how can you even claim to know that you aren't being keylogged, or are virus-free, or have never been hit by a virus? An unprotected machine is just part of the problem...

    EDIT, just to note, that post is not targetted at anyone in particular, I just thought of the idea because of the thread's contents.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2012
  47. TylerPerry

    TylerPerry

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    because nothing has ever happend to me?, actualy once my brother got somekind of network redirect... nasty piece of work it took ages to get rid of and a reset of the router.
     
  48. Don-Gray

    Don-Gray

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    What bothers me about installing this version of Windows 8 is that it seems you have to upgrade
    your present installation of Windows and can't do a fresh install on a new partition.
    I could be wrong but that's how it seems to read on the page and when the installer runs.
    I've only gone as far as checking for compatibility.
    Can anyone confirm that you can install on a fresh partition and it will create one?
     
  49. WinningGuy

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    You need to burn an .iso to a DVD. Then boot your PC from DVD.

    You'll be presented with an option to have a clean install on a new partition. Make sure you make the partition first though!

    I'm currently running it on a different partition and it's been buttery smooth.
     
  50. HolBol

    HolBol

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    This. It boots up, and I've timed this, in about 6 and a half seconds. Sleeps like a ninja. Shutdown is fast too. How fast it is is actually scary.

    @Don Gray, you'll need to make a new partition. I had my D:\ drive empty, so I used that during the install process from DVD.