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Beware of scammer - what should a client expect from an Art service provider?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by atalanta, Nov 9, 2011.

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  1. atalanta

    atalanta

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    Hi, I just was scammed by a so-called artist from this forum.

    He is prominent on this forum and aggressively posts as if he knows what he's talking about. He has a portfolio on the web. He promises a good deal on a package, which you agree to and put down payment (to lock in the price and start work), then produces 2 WIP screenshots that are significantly different from reference art (I think it was stuff on his hard drive that he hoped I would like) while continually asking to have the rest of the money deposited into his paypal. Basically this person wanted me to put $600 into his paypal account. I agreed to $200 down payment because 1. I never worked with him, 2. I needed to see WIP to know if he is capable of doing the work and $200 was all I was willing to risk until I could see WIP. :mad:

    I stopped the project and have now asked for a refund directly from the scammer and through paypal. He has not responded to my request for refund.

    I've requested that Unity forum put trust/feedback system in place so people can comment on their transactions with these forum members. Even something as rudimentary as: Delivered work expected, price reasonable, quality of work, ease of working with, this would attach to their member ID. Please let Unity know if this would be helpful.

    I'm thinking members who want to do business should have to register as a service provider or a client. This way honest providers/clients will register and allow themselves to be rated by their transactions while dishonest ones like this guy will be deterred. :?:What do you think?

    Since then I have discussed business with other member/providers who seem to be seriously professional. They ask for reference art and requirements and provide a list of deliverables and timeframe for delivery. All terms seem to up front and discussions had about the project agreed on before taking down payment. This seems to be the same routine the scammer used.

    This experience has made me leary. :( I am a paying client working on a real project that is near test. I pay on time and even before and other members can vouch for me.

    :confused:So here's the question in all this: As a client, what should I expect is the negotiation workflow, verification of work and deliverables expected for an animated model? :confused:
     
  2. PrimeDerektive

    PrimeDerektive

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    I think the commercial work forum is an informal method of connecting potential clients with artists/programmers/asset providers, but not meant to be a web application that actually facilitates transactions or maintains anything you're describing, I think that'd be better served as an entirely different website.

    I think you're best bet is to just say who it was to warn other community members.
     
  3. joel177

    joel177

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    Exactly,we can them make a black-list or something,
    but I guess you can never know if its someone new - we need to be more carefull.
     
  4. cgart

    cgart

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    Cant you issue a refund through paypal as a buyer of service.
    Moreover give all the links to his website and his name email warn him if he does not refund your money you will open all his website link his real name email etc in the forum
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2011
  5. atalanta

    atalanta

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    jOel177 you brought up a good point... that's exactly the problem. How do we be more careful?

    What are warning signs that the provider will be a problem? How are terms laid out? What are expected deliverables? What is typical for an artist to request? What is typical for the industry when asking for and providing services? What does a typical engagement look like?
     
  6. atalanta

    atalanta

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    Yes and Paypal will intervene if you file a dispute which I've done. They will lock down the receiver's account so they can't receive money anymore.
     
  7. Draad

    Draad

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    Hi,

    As an artist, this is my way to work, safe for both sides :

    1 : make the deal, what to do, how many poly, texture sizes, price, time, etc...
    2 : I start to work, client paid 0$ actually
    3 : I send regulary WIP's screen , wich client have to make me returns, what is ok, what is not.
    4 : When model is done, client send me payment by paypal, then I send him all files

    If you are looking for a trustable artist, I'm actualy avaible for some freelance task. ;)
     
  8. cgart

    cgart

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    Actually you gave too much upfront.You should have not given more then 50.
     
  9. I am da bawss

    I am da bawss

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    Is he in this forum? I can't find any thread or post relate to either "XXX" or "http://XXX.carbonmade.com", there is no result for either search term.

    As for your idea, I think its great idea. Like a reputation system which I have seen implemented in many other forums.

    I also think you also paid too much for down payment. Its a tricky question since THIS IS THE INTERNET, informal "deals" like these (across national borders and jurisdiction) means its effectively impossible not to get burn (both as service provider or as buyer).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 14, 2012
  10. atalanta

    atalanta

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    Thttp://www.odesk.com/ I've used it before for people out of the country.

    A client's credit is verified as a "Payee". Payment available is confirmed and waiting pending approval of work. Once the work is approved the Payee releases it to the service provider. The service provider also has records of WIP, can send screenshots, ratings etc. Odesk can also intervene in disputes. The people perform the work...competence is the only issue I've had here. Hard to measure competence.
     
  11. atalanta

    atalanta

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    To email XXX, you can use this online form:
    http://forum.unity3d.com/members/5827-Apprenticeneauxs

    I think he just killed his account. I received a "doesn't want to receive email" message.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 11, 2012
  12. I am da bawss

    I am da bawss

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    He doesn't even have any forum post or thread?

    Judging by his portfolio on his website, looks pretty amateurish. I think you are actually better off to get service from QUALITY and proven artist like Arteria3D. Not sure if Arteria does custom work but you can always ask (and I am pretty sure he is hungry for business).

    Just search the forum "Arteria" and you will see what I mean.
     
  13. Draad

    Draad

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    Rates can give you a good idea of position of the artist too.

    Someone using really incredible low rate is risky, I don't mean it's automaticaly a scammer, just a too low rate may let think they are not "professional", it can be someone doing that for pleasure, or a simply beginner. As professional, and you know that we have to pay Taxes and Licences etc ... so I personaly think someone rating under 15$/h is risky.

    Again I don't want my words to be missunderstood, that don't mean low rate artist are all scammer, low rates artists can also provide good stuff and professional work.
     
    theANMATOR2b likes this.
  14. PrimeDerektive

    PrimeDerektive

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    There was a thread sometime last year of his where other people were accusing him of the same stuff... I remember posting in it actually, I'm surprised I can't find it now... but yeah, he's a known scammer.
     
  15. I am da bawss

    I am da bawss

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    Actually, I think Charlie (charliesamways) in the forum also does good custom paid work too. He might be young, but I have seen his work and he sounds like a decent guy.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2011
  16. atalanta

    atalanta

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    It was this guy: http://XXX.carbonmade.com/
    To email XXX, you can use this online form:
    http://forum.unity3d.com/sendmessage.php?do=mailmember&u=5827

    vectorman4u @ yahoo.com


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOMZX4KhGbk&feature=player_embedded

    claims to have worked on this project
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfNNWffrf6g&feature=player_embedded

    http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/65...nimator-looking-for-work?highlight=Darquelord
     
  17. PrimeDerektive

    PrimeDerektive

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  18. atalanta

    atalanta

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    He talks big in all his posts like he knows what he's doing. Now that I look at it he was just bullying people. Here's another one of his scams http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/622123821/professor-klunksky-0/posts

    I wish there was a way to have the knowledge of the forum. In any case he just finished himself off.

    Yes I'm glad I only wasted $200. He originally wanted $600 down and $1200 for the models. Showed off Doom Rails and a few other projects.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2011
  19. GiusCo

    GiusCo

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    I think the actual configuration of the commercial forum is a bit tricky, in the sense that there are some genuine contractors (fully traceable, with portfolio, own website and organized as a business) and too many unknown quantities. The latter make a lot of noise trying to get a fast buck from equally unknown customers, leading to the situation described by OP. This is something Unity Tech should improve soon imho, making the access there more difficult.
     
  20. Harissa

    Harissa

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    As a general rule I would get a phone number and a physical address from someone before giving them work. It doesn't guarantee they're legit but if they don't want to give you them then something maybe fishy.
     
  21. I am da bawss

    I am da bawss

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    I just read a few of his posts. He sounds like a complete asshole. Always negative.
    My question is, WHY did you give the job to this asshole in the first place? :D
    Aren't you just rewarding the assholes? So ofcourse they will continue to act this way, and continue to scam people out of their hard earn money.

    I would never give a job to any arrogant pricks for starter. BAD ATTITUDE is always a warning sign for any situation.
     
  22. DanielQuick

    DanielQuick

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    It was on the Unity forums too, you'll notice in his post:
     
  23. atalanta

    atalanta

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  24. cgart

    cgart

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    His portfolio looks unpolished and rubbish i don't know what did you in maybe the rates.But he is charging good i don't for how many models.Its better to see the work in published titles so you know that he is a genuine artist who worked on published titles.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2011
  25. atalanta

    atalanta

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    I have to say that I did not read all his posts, and you are right after reading them he is a total asshole and should not be rewarded. I have run into so many asshole artists that I can't tell if it's a norm for these people. I was much more cautious when looking for a developer which I found a great one here. :)

    That is exactly why I'm asking the forum for opinion as to what is expected and what is typical for the industry.
     
  26. atalanta

    atalanta

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    He sent videos of things that matched what I was working on. He was in the USA and the rates were well within a normal. Won't be falling for that again. Since then I've had very good artists apply for the work and I see the difference in presentation and professionalism.
     
  27. I am da bawss

    I am da bawss

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    Atalanta, word of advice, if you want to look for good artists, you don't look for them in forum like Unity/Garage Game/Gamedev/3DGamestudio/UDK/...etc etc.

    You look for good artists in forums where ARTISTS GO TO. Eg. Polycount.com, GameArtisans.org, CGTalk.com...etc just to name a few.

    There are MILLIONS of good, professional artists out there, I just can't believe you chose that one.....
     
  28. atalanta

    atalanta

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    Hec I even tried artists at the local Art Institute... found nothing but a-holes there too. Like I said...is this the standard for the industry? What are typical contracts and workflow?

    Engineers are no problem. They are easily exposed with a few development questions from my server guy. They check in the code, invoice, we pay and go onto the next week.

    Artists are a whole other world of stuff. Portfolios can be manufactured or are sometimes hidden for copyright reasons, many are arrogant but good at what they do. I've had artists work on spec, agree to a price and then fail delivery so I couldn't pay them if I wanted to. It's just nuts. I'm an artist...I've done all the 2d work in my game. I've never done these things to my clients.
     
  29. cgart

    cgart

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    Yes you are right.You should look in cgtalk cgarena or game-artist.net like websites.
    They do charge industry rates but there are serious artist and professional there.You won't disappoint.

    This unity forums looks little scam for jobs because so much of amateur and kids wanting to earn quick bucks.
     
  30. Redbeer

    Redbeer

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    The real simple answer here is:

    1) Get real information on the person before you pay (address, phone, etc., verified). If they won't give the information, no deal.
    2) Don't pay up front. That's nonsense. I don't know of anyone that pays "up front" unless it's an onsite visit (for travel expenses). Payment on delivery/submitted invoice, period. In fact there are laws that limit the ability for businesses to charge for goods or services until the items are shipped (or in process to ship).
    3) Contest the charges on Paypal so you don't lose your down payment, but that shouldn't have to happen at all anyway.
    4) Understand the difference in quality of service from the work provided. If you can't go to that web site and see that the work is sparse, and amateur, at best, then you aren't qualified to spend your money on modeling services and I'm not sure how you're going to produce a commercial game...so why are you buying stuff in the first place? I mean the work on that site isn't "terrible", but it's not something I'd pay for, by any stretch of the imagination, and I'm not sure why that isn't comparatively obvious just by looking at the site.
    5) On the extreme end, only use people who can provide real verifiable professional references, either from working for a real company as an employee, or many projects they consulted on.
     
  31. Unicron

    Unicron

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    I worked with this guy XXX AKA "XXX" a while back, maybe 2 year ago when I first got into game development. Hopped on with a group that was trying to do an MMO using Hero Engine and this dude was apparently the main 3D artist of the group. He acted like he was the bomb at what he did and looking at his portfolio site now he still has the same stuff. You can see that he uses the same base mesh for all the characters that are on a t-pose, most likely a downloaded base mesh from someplace else. I would show him my 3D work which was a lot better than what he's done and would HATE and would put it down and criticize like he knows better.

    As a game artist I took the role of character design so I would finish up some characters for him to work on but he NEVER made them into 3D Models, not even any WIP. He would just show off his WIP models, the ones from his site and work on things like simple building models.

    Anyway, I left that group and he still kept in contact with me from time to time and would chime in saying that he's got this contract job from so and so company/studio and is making some awesome stuff, yeah right, his portfolio is still the same from 2 years ago...

    But yeah, don't work with this guy, he's a douchebag and doesn't know S***.
     
  32. DanielQuick

    DanielQuick

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    Now that I think about it, I was in a group with him a while ago using UDK. I don't believe he was getting paid as it was a collaboration, but he did end up getting kicked out because of his constant attitude problems :)
     
  33. atalanta

    atalanta

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    Actually I've produced a lot of commercial software for large corporations. Never had to work with artists because I was always it. All the engineering aspects of the project are moving along just fine with extremely high quality people who have reputations. It's the artists...always the artists. The 3d models are few and very simple. The game actually can launch with the 2d art and it looks better than many games out there. I just wanted some 3d models and was waiting until we go into test to have them made. So with regards to completing and marketing a commercial app...we got that down.

    The 3d artists are another whole jungle. I appreciate the forum's insights. An influence system on the forum would be good...then all your insights would be available to someone like me. In any case I will just have to go back to acting like a bail agent when I deal with artists (yes I used to chase bails too).
     
  34. I am da bawss

    I am da bawss

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    No, definitely not. Arrogant a-holes exist in every industry, so I wouldn't say its a norm. Show of arrogance means they are insecure about themselves - and it will always be a humbling experience for these types in the professional forums like Polycount/CGTalk/GameArtisans so they probably don't go there. Everyone knows they are nobody special when they know there is someone out there even better than them, and in places like these the experience is always humbling so people are always pretty nice.



    Haha, not a good way to go, just saying. Treating people like criminal isn't the right way because it means you will always only get criminals.



    THINK YOU WILL FIND A SYSTEM ARCHITECT OR ENGINEER IN THIS GROUP?


    Like I said before, know where to look for the right people is the only way to go. You don't go to places where they pick up foreign day-laborers to find System Architects or Engineers. :D
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2011
  35. cgart

    cgart

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    My advice when you ask them whether they can do the job then they say like oh it is very easy or yes it is a days work or that is exactly my type of work things like that then yes there is something not right going on.
     
  36. Unicron

    Unicron

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    Right, just like what everyone is saying. Check out their work to see if it's what you're looking for, don't offer or agree to any payment ahead, that's a red flag for me already, specially when they're asking for a $600 Paypal transfer before any work is done.

    Draw up a contract if possible outlining what they'll do for you and the amount of payment, maybe he/she will provide the contract instead. Give all the information in regards to what you're wanting to get done and work with them often as possible every step of the way to make sure that what he's working on is what you want.

    Bottom line is to get all your bases covered.
     
  37. atalanta

    atalanta

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    Bawss, I've even had artists who were recommended by peers AND were definitely working at game companies. Artists with spectacular portfolios. *The same junk over and over again. Hearing that he also worked at established game companies and scammed them too kinda takes the edge off. Consider lesson learned...that's what I get for relaxing a little. * Next time I'll just go all bail agent on them again before hiring ;)

    Actually I've had better luck with the workers on the curb, at least they try.

    I have had some higher quality people respond. I will give them a try. Was reluctant because they're not in the US but as we see...that really worked out for me.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2011
  38. pneill

    pneill

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    FWIW, there used to be a great thread about "good people to do business with." Might be time to reactive that one. Sort of an informal feedback service.
     
  39. HolBol

    HolBol

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    I agree with the above- but then, it's not just Artists scamming, it's some of us getting scammed ourselves. I had the misfortune of working with someone similar early this year, who decided to not contact me, and then not pay. I should work both ways- good people to hire, and people who actually pay. It would, I think for me at least, be a lot easier to get a job that way- alot of people are very cautious nowadays, and I don't blame them.
     
  40. scarpelius

    scarpelius

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    Many people here suggested that paying upfront is a mistake.
    I can say that working upfront is a mistake too. Someone on the forum contacted me to do a level generator for a 2D scrolling game. Since i had a thread where i said i will take jobs for low payments with the scope of building a portfolio of real clients I agreed with his $300. It took me 2 weeks to complete more than he requested initially. After 2 weeks i told him that if he wants to escalate the job on a full game (I ended up designing the game anyway) he have to pay more than we agreed initial. The game was made in such a way that it is easy for an artist to tweak the settings to construct levels and create gameplay.
    At this point our relation start to chill, he begin to respond very hard to emails until I get frustrated and give up. In the end i worked almost a month, adding more things than initially agreed, only to get burned.

    So, you see is not only the worker who is the bad guy here. And for workers is more difficult to avoid scamers or time wasters. Also for beginners in game programming (not programming) is way much harder to make an impression on an employer than for an artist. Not to mention the fact that as programmer it is not possible to cover all the fields of a game: AI, gui scripting, physics, networking, databases, web, shaders, IOS, Android, Java, C++ and so on. And most of the times an employee list all this in his request. You can be good at several of them, but i doubt that a database developer is going to have an easy day trying to write shaders.

    Having said these, I would never again take a job without a milestone payment from sources not trusted.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2011
  41. PrimeDerektive

    PrimeDerektive

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    Are you implying that any of the top notch artists I've worked with that I met on this forum are not good? ;)
     
  42. atalanta

    atalanta

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    I totally agree...I usually set up the contracts to have a milestone payment...especially if they are long term. I want to encourage work and pay for it. Makes everyone happier. I know workers worry about doing a lot of spec work and not getting paid. That's happened to me too. Keep moving that pixel over to the left...a little more...a little more...now can you move it to the right?

    Anyway, back to work. I have a game to get out...back to drawing plants and stuff.
     
  43. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    it is not normal, for anyone providing a service, say a programmer or artist to act like an asshole at all. If they do, then move on, because you do not succeed in this business of providing 1 to 1 services by being impolite. What you should look for is extreme respect towards you, the paying client.

    Any less does not work.
     
  44. Redbeer

    Redbeer

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    Sound advice.

    I'm also still not sure how the guys portfolio alone didn't disqualify him, but that's of course my subjective opinion I guess.
     
  45. atalanta

    atalanta

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    OK so here's the question: All of you are welcome to answer.

    Are you telling that a person with a portfolio of work like Darqelord's is incapable of creating simple models from reference art? The models and animations are much simpler than what he is showing in his portfolio. Wouldn't it be overkill for me to have, say super duper AAA Gears of War dude making such simple models?
     
  46. cgart

    cgart

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    Yes yes yes you are right mine friend now you should brush it up and go on with the life it happens at some point in our life.
    As a 2d artist i did have some experiences by not receiving the money from the client after giving away the work but i always brush it up as those type of people are a few only.Mostly people want to work and the client wants to pay them.
    So mine advice you can't do much in this brush it up and start up fresh.

    The only thing i feel you did wrong here giving too much of a upfront.You could have given 50 bucks to start that was fine.
     
  47. atalanta

    atalanta

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    Forums are funny.
    Thank you all for digging up this guy's trail and running out of town. The Unity forum is now safer than it was yesterday. I've already moved on with all your advice... got a very cool project to finish.
     
  48. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Never be desperate for an artist. If he isn't willing to negotiate how can you feel happy? use your intuition - if something is 'off' it always is off. Since when has intuition been wrong?
     
  49. Cloudstudium.com

    Cloudstudium.com

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    We have been burnt plenty of times by rouge artist,it seems the recession is driving many into this area be safe and always use contracts with a provision within that the artist send you the item by mail, not just email as paypal will rule in the scammers favor and not refund you, as an Indie company you have to watch who you do business with and if possible get a trial work done by the said artist.

    Be safe out there!
     
  50. Eric5h5

    Eric5h5

    Volunteer Moderator Moderator

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    I hate rouge artists. All that makeup...it's just vanity.

    --Eric
     
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