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Full sized planets for Unity3D -- interesting?

Discussion in 'Works In Progress - Archive' started by imerso, Sep 12, 2011.

  1. imerso

    imerso

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    I am not aware of any actually *released* games featuring visitable and full sized planets, not even Spore as their planets are very small. As far as I know there are no released games featuring something like that as of today, only videos of upcoming games.

    So, unless I'm absurdly mistaken, we're talking about next-gen technology here.
     
  2. lazygunn

    lazygunn

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    I'm not sure they count as 'released', they are very old, but here's Frontier, made in 1994 i think? I 'completed' it (reached Elite anyways) on the commodore amiga, one of the most ambitious games ever made and all under 500kb. In this video you can do everything shown, in-game, including flying surface to space, between planets, between solar systems with different star types, gravities, even social and economic systems. Everythings to scale and uses newtonian physics

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqhP_e855C4

    Even earlier than that was Mercenary 2 - Damocles, that allowed travel from planet to planet but the planet surface was im sure not truse scale. was a hell of an achievement for the time though (1990)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzgQe8_cxe8

    You could take a look at d3d ffe, which is a very pretty reworking of the sequel to frontier



    http://www.spacesimcentral.com/downloads/ft2.php?dir=/FFED3D
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2011
  3. imerso

    imerso

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    @LazyGunn: yes, thank you for remembering those games, I love them. And Elite is still possibly the best game ever, if we consider the hardware limitations of that time.

    edit: But still, I think you understand what next-gen meaning I was referring to.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2011
  4. lazygunn

    lazygunn

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    Elite was the first game I ever played :) Was on the BBC Micro. i'm still endlessly thankful that I got addicted to games via such an illustrious start, it probably is, taken hardware limitations at the time, the best game ever made. Frontier much like it was incredibly ambitious but lacked focus, its sequel was a buggy mess sadly, but yeah, I hope you played Damocles! Because your planet code is absolutely perfect for a remake
     
  5. Deleted User

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    Hah old memories of perfect games are coming back. Who knows maybe with this plug-in one of us will achieve creation of such good game.
    Time will tell.
    But one thing is sure, you're work imerso will save us A LOT of time :)
     
  6. lazygunn

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    Hah yes, i was just reminiscing is all
     
  7. Broken-Toy

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    You can have a look at Voxelform for a way to do that right now, but if a solution more adapted to planets is on the way, then this could get very, very interesting...

    My only issue with large-scale games is the floating point error bugs, but if you somehow managed to sort that out -including- for multiplayer... then awesome :D

    I can understand why, for Spore, they took the design decision to focus on concise phases and scale ranges (they certainly had the technology to do otherwise!); it is a common paradigm in traditional game design that the players have a short attention span and need to be 'rewarded' by interesting stuff quickly and consistently to keep their interest, as if they were some kind of automaton requiring pre-planned stimuli.

    But the problem with that approach is that, when they took all the "boring" parts off and kept only planets, they also removed the very fun of the journey to discover, reach and earn unusual stuff. Everything was made of somewhat interesting landmarks therefore decreasing their value and making -them- repetitive and boring since they were so easily found and reached. So instead of "Oh my god! Among the asteroid fields and lone stars, I found a planet!", it became "Okay here are a hundred thousand planets, all slight variations of one another... Next!".

    Food for thought.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2011
  8. Deleted User

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    Well you can use you're imagination for sure this plug-in will be able to do many different type of planets moons stars not only in sizes but colors and such. Rest you can add by your self black holes, horizont of events, aliens, pirates everything depends on your imagination and how much work you will put in the game. Also as you can tell you can land on every planet so take random planets and change them add building make caverns and such :).
    But you are right the came cannot be focus on only one thing or it will be boring in very short time.
     
  9. gordonramp

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    With such a vast platform for scenarios I think that 'storyline' will become an important part of the jigsaw. In the past, players have been short changed with basic FPS warring storylines that are basically irrelevant to the Game Play. I suggest that it will be necessary to have an Epic Story to go with such an Epic environment. One that is entwined sufficiently to keep the Player guessing and wondering. Otherwise, it will be just a bigger bore.
     
  10. npsf3000

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    Count me in, I could use that no problem.
     
  11. zaaneiel

    zaaneiel

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    I love the concept, another small team has a similar project. infinity-game i think it is.
    I have an old geforce 5600 and it runs at like 5 - 18 frames per second (the tech demo at your website)
    Definitely not playable for me, and my kid's laptops probably wouldn't be able to run it either. I am getting a newer video card soon though.

    one question I have is... How do you make the tech demo 102k? it must be streaming from your server?
    could explain why its so dang laggy as well lol

    Great work!
     
  12. lazygunn

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    Nope I think its that it generates most of the assets procedurally, its pretty clever
     
  13. Alienchild

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    Last edited: Sep 18, 2011
  14. lazygunn

    lazygunn

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    farbrauch's stuff is legendary, many more examples of tiny (many 64kb or less), very pretty demos with procedurally generated content can be found at www.pouet.net
     
  15. sawfish

    sawfish

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    I also would be interested in purchasing this. Good luck with the conversion! :)
     
  16. Adam-Buckner

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    This is the flip side of game volume/distance compression. Even as I mentioned that World of Warcraft has been regularly shortening the distances between locations and have been easing and simplifying the goal resolution (quests primarily), the quests themselves do start to seem irrelevant, and the volume of goals need to increase to satisfy the player until the whole game becomes boring and irrelevant.

    It is a difficult balance.

    What I think is interesting, however, on a Game Design train of thought, is with the examples that LazyGunn posted, that the size of the planets were essentially irrelevant from what I could see. The planets were essentially props to give a sense of the location. It was the Landing Zone that was of interest. The planet (and it's overall content) wasn't.

    I think it's interesting to note on the Mercenary 2 - Damocles example that the scale of the star system was exaggerated, one could see the entire system in one view and the planets were of noticeable and identifiable size. Whereas in a true representation of scale, the planets themselves would be hard to distinguish from the background stars if the field of view were wide enough to cover the entire system.

    Lastly, I found it very telling that in the first example, Frontier, there was a time scale button that could be toggled up to 1000x (iirc) to help with the immense times that come with the immense distances. On the other hand, if one were able to allow huge, but sub-light speeds, there might be some fun and interest in exploring the actual time dilation that would happen to a pilot at speeds approaching the speed of light. This is a know function - tho' it would be fun to also experiment (a la "forever war") the mismatching of time "feels" from people who are now completely out of sync with the time scale of the rest of universe.

    All of this does make the mind spin with possibilities...
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2011
  17. runonthespot

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    If anyone has played the very strange and wonderful game "King of Dragon Pass", just released on iphone now (formerly a 90's PC game I think?), imagine that story concept over this planet concept, and *kaboom*. There would go my life.
     
  18. Alienchild

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    Hehe that's a cool thought, but to implement time dilation as a game mechanic would be extremely hard. Of course it depends on how "accurate" you want to emulate it. I suppose you could make an extremely simplified version where the spaceships motion would speed up a timer, speeding it up exponentially as you approach the speed of light. Of course time dilation doesn't work that way, since it is only a change in acceleration that will cause the dilation... wonder how you'd tackle a thing such as causality in your game ;)
     
  19. Adam-Buckner

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    It's speed at point iirc that sets the apparent dilation for you the observer. The effects are different to the outside observer watching a fast object pass. It's been a while since I reviewed this, but the best simple (simplistic?) explanation of the apparent change of time based on velocity is: "If you take two perfect mirrors and bounce a photon between them - let's say in the center of the mirror array. Let's say that the full travel time from one mirror to the next and back is one unit of time. That photon can only travel the speed of light. The light will bounce in a relative way, meaning if you are moving and the mirrors are moving with you the photon will continue to bounce in the center of the mirrors - according to you, the observer. But the photon must still travel in space, at the speed of light. So as the mirrors move forward faster, the light must travel a longer actual distance in order to bounce from one mirror to the other. The faster you move, the farther the photon must travel, and this take time, but to you, the observer, the light continues to bounce at the same rate... your perception has slowed down. Each of the following takes 1 unit of apparent observer time. The first is not moving (but everything in the universe is moving at least a little bit, but hey...), the second is moving fast, the third is at light speed where time is - for the observer - stopped - as that photon is moving forward at light speed, so cannot cycle between the mirrors:

     
  20. Alienchild

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    I get what you are trying to say but you are wording it in a way that I don't like; you say that the observers perception is slowed down. That might to some be interpreted that this is something going on in the head of the observer. Of course it isn't, as time and space is relative to the observer. Two obeservers might disagree, but none (or both!) are right.

    Anyways, the experiment is a nice thought-experiment, but I wonder how it would work in practice given the uncertainty principle. If the two plates/mirrors were one wavelength of light apart, does that mean that you know exactly where the photon is and at what speed it is going? Would you force quantum-tunneling through the mirrors?
     
  21. Deleted User

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    imerso it would be great if you could give us some background information on how you're work is doing. So we can estimate when to get money for it haha, or when start modifications in the game.
     
  22. imerso

    imerso

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    Making some real progress.

    At this point, I have the heart of the engine running already, but it is too early to show any screenshot yet. What I can say now is that it is integrating well.

    This is not a promise, but I foresee a real chance of releasing this extension on the first days of october.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2011
  23. psyclone

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    Nice to hear.. Good luck that it all goes well
     
  24. grfxman

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    I think that players run in several categories, One of them being explorers. I used to play Entropia a lot but often I would have more fun finding weird locations that no one knew about. And there were several of my friends that enjoyed this as well. This reminds me so much of work being done at :

    http://www.infinity-universe.com/Infinity/

    And I've been waiting for years for them to complete there work. So I'll Buy it the second you supply a download link. :)
     
  25. Adam-Buckner

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    grfxman: At first I was thinking that the site was stale stale stale.... with many updates no more recent than 2008. But then there are updates from August 2011, so it still seems to have some heat.

    A very ambitious project.

    What I'm curious about with *this* project, even if this is only *terrain* rather than details (trees, etc.). As it would be impossible to save the planetary terrain data in any conventional form, I assume that it would need to be procedurally built. What mechanism would be in place to make it persistent? Would this all be generated from a single seed (per planet, I would assume) so that when one revisited a location, it would be the same?
     
  26. grfxman

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    Little Angel:

    " Would this all be generated from a single seed (per planet, I would assume) so that when one revisited a location, it would be the same? "

    I'm guessing so. I'm curious about the data storage structures to hold Non-Procedural objects for placement of buildings, Trees etc.. after you have the planets built. I'm guessing it would be a challenge. But I love the idea of vast worlds and would love to give it a try.

    Also I'm up for Beta Testing and Advanced Purchasing :)
     
  27. lazygunn

    lazygunn

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    I can see that as the only real way to do it, although if it allowed you to model spefic chunks of terrain on the surface you could have individual areas too. Obviously modelling an entire planet is out of the question


    I'm still really thinking about Damocles and this right now
     
  28. U2

    U2

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    I'll ditto on testing if you need someone and advance purchase..
     
  29. psyclone

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    While I don't think you have any issue getting enough testers... Ill definitely put myself on the list....

    Im definitely looking at buying once complete.
     
  30. U2

    U2

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    I'm curious if you think in the future there might be the ability to add some post-processing filters for after the initial fractal generation? For instance in the terrain toolkit there are some filters for smoothing, adding wind erosion, tidal erosion etc.. I wonder how adding some of these type of formulas would impact the overall frame rate since it is done in real time. It would allow for some much more realistic looking terrains.

    Also, it would be interesting to add some mesh modifier height maps..
    As an example much like assigning textures to various slopes and heights etc.. you could assign a miniature height map image such as a steam vent volcano shape or moon crater shape of say 32x32px in size. Instead of placing an object in that location it would adjust the current procedural height map data with the shape. Almost like height map decals.

    Just some thoughts for the future =)
     
  31. imerso

    imerso

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    It was an error from my part to show an earlier screenshot with half features converted. I just deleted the post and the image, as I guess it is better not to start showing things still in progress. Doing that does not cause any good.

    Thanks for all the nice comments and suggestions!
     
  32. Sollthar

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    You'd think people who do design themselves would be able to differentiate between WIP and FINAL, wouldn't you? I'm always amazed by how many can't. :)

    I'll keep following this for sure.
     
  33. imerso

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    Nice suggestions. The second suggestion is already planned but in a simpler way where an optional coarse heightmap make a base landscape, then the fractal adds the details.

    The first suggestion I am afraid there is not enough time for new features until the first release. I am following the methodology of not holding too much trying to get everything done before releasing something. The first one is almost done, and if there is enough feedback, I'll continue adding new features. For now, it's possible to sort of simulate erosion through parameters tweaking.



    It is procedural. Even some objects placement will be. With a few bytes you hold enough information about the entire planet, and anytime you return at some location, that location will be regenerated exactly the same, always -- unless you change some parameter.

    But, as said above, I won't keep holding until implementing everything, I'm going to release next month with at least a basic set of features (procedural terrain), and some features will have to wait until the next release.

    I believe that those of you who are really waiting for something like that will find a way to place things on the huge terrain, even if I do not provide that option directly.


    Thank you all for your nice comments.

    []s
    imerso
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2011
  34. imerso

    imerso

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    Heheh, just in case, no screenshots available. =)

    Thanks.
     
  35. kinkersnick

    kinkersnick

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    Good lord.
    This is exactly what I've been looking for, and very tentatively started to build myself (which would probably take me a few years from now...)
    Can't wait for this, sign me up!
     
  36. U2

    U2

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    Imerso thank you for your responses! Just so you know I am an idea person so pretty much everything I say is just to help the creative juices flow. I realize your first release will be a simple conversion of your existing algorithm as it should be. Too many projects in these forums never get published because more and more features try to be added before the release. I'm thinking more down the road as I consider various aspects of my own project and how it is going to utilize your code.

    Looking forward to October!
     
  37. Deleted User

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    Just an idea from my part to all of people who will use this plug-in and wont know how to move on such huge terrain. Create a start point where you can always return to. For example i will create on every planet 6 points on top of planet at bottom and on every side just for start to help me create map of terrain. Than in every city i will set an empty game object and call it just as the name of the city and when i will want to get to it fast i will just click empty game object and press F on keyboard and whola ! You are in the city.
    This is only an idea, to help people before something like that will be added sooner or later.
     
  38. gordonramp

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    Thinker,
    Creating cities is feasible but to make them look realistic, they need to be populated. Surely this is a major obstacle on such a grand scale. How would you do it or would your cities be people free like ghost towns?
     
  39. Deleted User

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    Obstacles are only as hard as you're imagination let them to be.
    1 of many ways to make it realistic and still not so hard to do is create a role explaining that on such planet live is impossible and people can live only in side of artificial atmosphere buildings connected to each other with special underground road path. Every building can be made as separate level in game or even better make a small sphere that is a small city and such sphere make a separate level in game.
    This is only one of many MANY ways to achieve such goal. ( of course this was think of by me while writing so its an idea that would need some adjustments, but besides it, it would work for sure. I was not the first person who think of something similar for example go see game call G-Police its old but its the same idea. )
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 26, 2011
  40. U2

    U2

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    One of the things I think is kind of exciting about this whole project is how many times I hear people referring to "old" games or systems. By old too it seems like late 80s to mid 90s. I find it kind of fascinating that it has taken almost 20 years to open the door technology wise to further develop some of the original ideas of science fiction worlds.

    As far as movement goes I am considering something similar to what you are saying Thinker with home points or warp points. That idea is nothing new in itself.. WoW has hearth stones.. FFXI warp scrolls etc.. I was also toying with the idea of implementing something like the Tribes jet pack in order to account for unpredictable terrain. All of this is not really anything for imerso to consider really.. They are just ideas of how to work within the massive Universe environment.
     
  41. gordonramp

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    Thinker,
    Like it. Nice ideas.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2011
  42. gordonramp

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    It's October the 1st where I live. :) I've been re-thinking my project to accommodate this technology. As others have said it really opens up the possibilities for story lines. Beta tester available here if needed.
     
  43. psyclone

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    Same here Gordon... Kiwis Unite.. Go All Blacks
     
  44. U2

    U2

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    roflol in Imerso's defence he did say "first days of october" and also a "real chance". But still that hasn't kept me from checking the forums everyday to see if there is any progress on this thread =)
     
  45. houndie

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    lol same. multiple times a day just to see if there is some update, doesn't matter what it is :)
     
  46. Adam-Buckner

    Adam-Buckner

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    Subscribe!



    Tho' it's not as much fun as checking with the anticipation and hum of expectant excitement.
     
  47. Deleted User

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    imerso i have few question's about your plug in i know its still in work but i have questions about your future updates to it.

    Will you add:
    - " Planet Rings " ? ( just like Jupiter Rings - slowly rotating with planet )
    - " Asteroid Belt " ( asteroids randomly rotating )
    - And of course meteors and asteroids randomly flying in space with random trajectory.
    - Creating different kind of suns ( as basic you can add just different color and sizes of suns it would be enough )

    Like i said i understand that this plug-in is still in work and we will have only the basic version so those questions are about your future work spend on it.
     
  48. pixelsteam

    pixelsteam

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    Really fantastic work!!! i'm in for sure.
     
  49. Johnxyz

    Johnxyz

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    This is awesome ! But still imerso is off more than a weak i wonder if he will continue his work or he just left :/
    It would be a shame cause this looks awesome !
    +1
     
  50. Servo-27

    Servo-27

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    I really want to see this brought to unity, I would move my other missile air defense game over to unity for this.