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  1. Super Moderator
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    Bullying and the Unity forum community

    Hi,

    When people post about their writing, or their latest creation, I notice the same virtual bullies pop up to try and shoot that person down, even though they are just trying their best.

    This behaviour is something I will not tolerate. I never have tolerated any form of bullying and I won't tolerate it now. It is trivial for me to gather a list of posts where you've bullied over time and present this to moderators and have your asses banned.

    Moving on, here are some guidelines when to critique someone's work and when to encourage someone's work.

    1. Is it it commercial? If the work is intended to be sold, then you should come down brutal but honest, because you're doing the person no favours by kissing ass. They will appreciate honest and clear viewpoint. If you like it, say so - if you don't like it, don't comment. But... if you see a FLAW or area of improvement then do comment and help them.

    People who are brutally honest get more satisfaction out of the brutality than out of the honesty.
    -Richard J. Needham

    2. If it is not commercial, and they are sharing their work, it is always better to encourage them to do better, not criticise them. Often, a user on these forums will be a hobbyist or someone doing something for fun and its personal to them.

    Had I the heaven's embroidered cloths,
    Enwrought with golden and silver light,
    The blue and the dim and the dark cloths
    Of night and light and the half-light,

    I would spread the cloths under your feet:
    But I, being poor, have only my dreams;
    I have spread my dreams under your feet;
    Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
    -Yeats

    3. When someone posts their work in progress but doesn't ask for critique, it is still OK to add to it. You can suggest things that you think will make it even better, however people not your native language, or kids may take it the wrong way. That's their problem if you have been careful to try and help. It happens to me sometimes, I'll see a potentially good idea or game, and add what I feel may really improve it for them. Some people love feedback, some don't so try not to criticise their game at the same time as suggesting improvements.

    Thats all I have to say, I don't want to see posts where people think they have a right to jump on someone just because they are showing work to the world. Remember, for a lot of people, this is their pride and joy. Only be brutally honest if they are asking for feedback and its intended for sale.

    If someone is announcing a new product, NEVER offer brutal feedback unless it is asked for because that is insulting. A well done, is sufficient here.

    Less bullying, more community support.
    Currently working with Sony on our new
    PS4 and Vita game in Unity!

    This post is not representative of Simian Squared Ltd


  2. Location
    Zürich, Switzerland
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    I can't agree on your point 2 but that primarily because you seem see critism as something bad and negative. That would imply that you forgot about the fundamental point and idea of constructive critism which is to bring the person forward and gain more satisfaction from the outcome which is encouraging.
    It sounds much more as if you meant flame or rant there (also known as non-constructive critism) which generally has only adequate place to exist and thats up the back end of the flamer / ranter.


  3. Posts
    38
    I agree with this thread, I typically lurk but lately I've seen alot of harsh comments and attacks on people that doesn't seem right. Some threads going as far as having to be locked due to fighting...it benefits no one to fight on a forum, but make new comers feel as they should not post as they would be next to be attacked.

  4. Super Moderator
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    @dreamora: There's a difference between point 2 and 3, and you've focussed on point 2, which is for entirely someone's personal project. This is the issue I have with a lot of virtual bullies. They jump up and down on someone's project and demoralise them without any gain or reason whatsoever, because the hobbyist in question merely wants to proudly show their work. There is a time and place to criticise and that is often lost on people.

    I am not the forum police, I am a passionate unity user, but I do feel protective of new talent and people showing their first works. It is a scary and emotional experience for many people, and I am also passionate about growth in game development. I feel it is a fantastic medium for people to express creativity. The point of my post, was to explain how easy it is to mistake when to criticise and crush those first steps.
    Last edited by hippocoder; 09-11-2011 at 05:31 AM.
    Currently working with Sony on our new
    PS4 and Vita game in Unity!

    This post is not representative of Simian Squared Ltd


  5. Location
    United Kingdom
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    247
    I have got to agree with this post seeing that I am pretty new to the game development world and only a teen, I occasionally will have people making fun of my work saying that a 2 year old could do better. It doesn't particularly bother me but it does in some ways de moralise me and put me off.
    Last edited by Chub; 09-11-2011 at 07:03 AM.
    Need more members for Battle of the Falklands FPS Project!
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  6. Location
    UK, Grimsby
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    3,379
    First time ive seen you 'rage', but your right. Depending on how the replies go, not sure how long this thread will last :L but thanks for bringing it up.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chub View Post
    I have got the agree with this post seeing that I am pretty new to the game development world and only a teen, I occasionally will have people making fun of my work saying that a 2 year old could do better. It doesn't particularly bother me but it does in some ways de moralise me and put me off.
    I agree with you on that, I hate being knocked down, you lose a lot of motivation to do more work.

  7. Zoe Zoe is offline

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    This is why I'm very hesitant to show off any work I've done on here, I've seen some rather vicious people. And if you don't have much confidence to begin with....


  8. Location
    UK, Grimsby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoe View Post
    This is why I'm very hesitant to show off any work I've done on here, I've seen some rather vicious people. And if you don't have much confidence to begin with....
    You know ill always punch your ego up. your work is amazing ^_^

  9. Zoe Zoe is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by charliesamways View Post
    You know ill always punch your ego up. your work is amazing ^_^
    But that's the thing, one person will say they love your work then someone else can tear it to shreds. Art and literature is very subjective so no matter how amazing something is, someone will always have hurtful words for you. And for some reason it's so absolutely necessary for them to tell you how awful you are and point out every little flaw.


  10. Location
    Zürich, Switzerland
    Posts
    26,572
    Well for "critism and flame" the same rule applies as for securing your assets: there is only one place thats safe and where you don't need to worry about it and thats if you keep it on your system which has no Internet connection and don't show and hand it to anyone.
    The moment you show it, you have to accept the feedback, be it good or bad, thats just the nature of human and "freedom of speak" in the age growing stupidity and social incapabilities thanks to TV and Social Networks.

    And actually out of my view you should learn to handle that early on instead of hiding because it will take time to learn the needed things to "filter" the meaningfull postings and identifying trolls right away to use the new boards nice ignore feature to never read the trollshit again.


  11. Location
    USA
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    528
    This behaviour is something I will not tolerate. I never have tolerated any form of bullying and I won't tolerate it now.

    If you weren't in a robe with a pipe and a glass of cognac while you typed that you have failed yourself.
    There are two types of people in the world, people who believe there are only two types of people, and smart people


  12. Location
    UK, Grimsby
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    Quote Originally Posted by spiralgear View Post
    If you weren't in a robe with a pipe and a glass of cognac while you typed that you have failed yourself.
    That has always been my picture of Hippo ^_^


  13. Location
    Yukon
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    668
    Constructive criticism is good, but some people want to simply be critical, for the sake of being critical. False of belonging or social pressure can breed the wrong type of criticism for sure, and this being a community, certain elements will breed. There is an excellent core of people here tho, who just want to help, and are genuinely excited to see new things come through, and offer the right kind of criticism.

    I absolutely agree tho HippoCoder - Bullying in any form should never be tolerated. The more we let it go, the more it sends the message its ok. As adults we tend to sometimes think that bullying is only a problem youth experience, but the reality is, many adult bully's never learn appropriate ways to interact with their peers. It is also unfortunate that many people become bully's on the internet, because of their perceived idea that they are anonymous and can do whatever they wish. This is becoming less and less the reality however, as tracking software gets better, people who are tired of this can take even the extreme measures to file a lawsuit (we've seen this with a few celebrities and such in the last few years for instance).

    Regardless of the bad element, I enjoy being a part of this community, and I'm sure if enough people regularly say, we like being here, and some things we wont tolerate, it will continue to drive the trolls under the bridge, after all, with any community, we gotta stand up and say what we find acceptable, and stick to that, otherwise yes, these jokers will take over, moderation or no moderation.


  14. Location
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    But that's the thing, one person will say they love your work then someone else can tear it to shreds. Art and literature is very subjective so no matter how amazing something is, someone will always have hurtful words for you. And for some reason it's so absolutely necessary for them to tell you how awful you are and point out every little flaw.
    That is true like many have said but I feel that people pointing out flaws in your work is good as that means you have not seen them yourself and you can go and fix the problem(s). Some people are a little too critical at times for no apparent reason though, sometimes it's good to be blunt about things but not tear someone's work down completely.

    I too don't think that bullying should be tolerated...

    Regardless of the bad element, I enjoy being a part of this community, and I'm sure if enough people regularly say, we like being here, and some things we wont tolerate, it will continue to drive the trolls under the bridge, after all, with any community, we gotta stand up and say what we find acceptable, and stick to that, otherwise yes, these jokers will take over, moderation or no moderation.
    +1
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  15. Super Moderator
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    The best way to deal with behaviour thats going too far is simply peer pressure, if nobody supports the bully, and tells him he's wrong there and then, then they'll eventually come round and do the same. It's the forum setting an example.

    Moderation is cutting off a tumor that can grow back, but positive peer pressure is a cure.


    (hippo leans back in his armchair and takes a puff of his pipe and swirls the mature cognac in his glass contemplatively)
    Currently working with Sony on our new
    PS4 and Vita game in Unity!

    This post is not representative of Simian Squared Ltd


  16. Location
    Western Europe
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    847
    But if you look from another point of view..(each problem has two sides)
    It could also help, if for the sake of point 2 and 3, the poster doesn't have a cocky additude in their writing/announcements.
    e.g. "best game idea ever" , "uber this or that", "years of experience and therefor" etc etc kind of suggesting titles, posts... you know the kind i mean.
    That generates high expectations, and if those expectations are not met, readers will ofcourse react in a negative fasion. (critisism)

    In the end i agree on the initative of Hippo! "Less bullying, more community support. "

    But, as dreamora e.g. said: critism is not per definition a bad thing. it''s more about the tone surrounding it.
    The blunt comments, without any depth/pionters to improvement, like e.g. "it sucks!" without anything added, is something we as community must not do towards eachother.
    We are not barbarians, but humans. let's act like one.
    Last edited by saymoo; 09-11-2011 at 07:02 AM.



  17. Posts
    3,149
    Honestly when it comes to posting some showcase work i think that everyone in this forums are very supporting. That is why i like to post on this forums more than anywhere else, becouse people always give you support for your work. Bullying only appears on collaboration threads, honestly some threads written in 3 seconds really do deserve that, becouse it isnt anymore matter about them it is matter about people who join this project.

  18. Super Moderator
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    That's because you do good work, and that particular thread just seems like a joyous episode of support. The other threads aren't so kind.
    Currently working with Sony on our new
    PS4 and Vita game in Unity!

    This post is not representative of Simian Squared Ltd


  19. Posts
    3,149
    That's because you do good work, and that particular thread just seems like a joyous episode of support. The other threads aren't so kind.
    Hehe true, that topic is really nice.

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